Pensions (Pre-consolidation) Measure
Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord McKenzie of Luton
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, I just want to put on the record something that I believe is terribly important. I entirely agree with what the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, has just said. Of course, the third Measure is a consolidation but it covers an exceptionally important group of buildings in this country. Sixteen thousand buildings are in the care of the Church of England, most of them parish churches. Most are listed, and a great many in the top category. Collectively, these buildings, together with our cathedrals, are the most important public buildings in the country, and we all have an affectionate care for them.
As a church warden I have sought to raise money, as I did, for instance, when we raised £1 million for St Margaret’s, Westminster, in the early 1980s. From that, I know that the people who do not often, and sometimes never, go to church still regard the building as central to their lives. For them, it is a focal point on the landscape—the one public building in the town or village to which they can easily resort. Many of them are now used, very properly, for a variety of other recreational and community purposes.
It is crucial that, in recognising that consolidation Measure, we recognise the importance of the buildings to which it refers. It is no easy task to maintain ancient and fragile buildings. Having been a churchwarden three times, and as the former president of the Staffordshire Historic Churches Trust, as the only vice-president of the Lincolnshire one at the moment, and as a trustee for over 40 years and then vice-president of the Historic Churches Preservation Trust—now the National Churches Trust—I know that we all have individual and collective responsibility. I do hope that those present in your Lordships’ House today will have a look at this Measure and see what the Church is doing, and that whenever the occasion offers, will make their own contributions in whatever form they take to ensure that these buildings, which define our land and our history, are not at greater risk than they are at the moment. The fewer that have to close, the better.
Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)
My Lords, it is with a degree of apprehension that I rise on this issue, but I spotted the word “pensions”—and I even spotted the word “Europe”, but I do not propose to go there this afternoon.
Can the right reverend Prelate confirm that at the moment there are three pension arrangements? There is the Church of England (Pensions) Measure, for service before January 1998, funded by the commissioners; the Church of England Funded Pension Scheme for service from January 1998, which is funded by the members; and the Clergy (Widows and Dependants) Pension Fund, which was closed to new entrants a long time ago, and there are no current contributions being made to it. I think that the proposition here is to transfer resources from that fund to the other pension scheme. I understand that, if it is a consolidation. What I was looking for was the requirement for the Church of England Funded Pension Scheme to take on the mantle of the obligations that previously would have rested with the widows and dependants scheme.
Local Government Finance Bill
Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord McKenzie of Luton
Lord Cormack
My Lords, coming in to listen is fatal. I was very taken by what the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, said. As somebody who did not support the introduction of the poll tax in Scotland and voted against it on every conceivable occasion thereafter, I would hate to think that we are in any sense moving in that direction. I say briefly, but with great feeling, that I hope the Minister, for whom I have genuinely high regard, will be able to give us some comfort in her response, either now or on Third Reading, because the problems that the noble Baroness sketched are for us theoretical, but for those who suffer, they can make the difference between a life and an existence.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, we fully support the amendment moved by the noble Baroness. It touches the issues of justice and of practicality. The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, has just emphasised the challenges of collecting small amounts and revisiting the poll tax. This is, in part, genuinely saving the Government from themselves. I hope the Minister will not pray in aid the transitional funding because that simply does not address the problem. It might ameliorate it at the margins, but it does not deal fully with the very substantial issue that the noble Baroness has raised.