Localism Bill

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Lucas

Monday 17th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, I associate myself with the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, who talked about clarity and speed. I think that both the noble Lords, Lord Best and Lord Greaves, have performed a service by tabling these amendments. They are a prescription not for foot-dragging but for orderly progress, and it is essential to have that. Clarity, yes; speed, up to a point; but orderly progress is absolutely essential. There has to be a transitional period. I am sure that my noble friend the Minister will accept that. Whether or not she accepts the amendments, it is incumbent on the Government to explain to us that there will be proper transition and that we are not plunged from one situation into another. The fact that so many authorities do not have plans gives us all cause for concern. There has to be proper time to put those plans together.

The noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, was right to indicate that this is not the easiest of times for local authorities. Many have laid off staff and have not replaced conservation officers and people who did a vital job. In my local authority of South Staffordshire, which had an admirable record on these matters, the absolutely first-class conservation officer took early retirement in the early part of last year and has not been replaced. The local authority is trying to replace the work that he did, but without him it is not easy. For every possible reason, therefore, I ask the Minister to let us have a period of orderly transition and progress, so that if we are trying to create a better situation, we do not confound our own efforts by over-haste. Once again, there is good sense in the motto that I have quoted in this House before: festina lente.

[Lord Lucas]

My Lords, in former times it was the custom of some generals after a victory to allow a limited period for rape and pillage before good order was restored. The thought has been raised in this House and outside that this is what the Government intend with this Bill. Along with my noble friend Lord Cormack, I find myself worried. I do not understand how this transition is to be managed: how we are to get from a position where there are not valid local plans in a large number of local authorities to the position where there are, without there being a succession of undesirable planning permissions given. The core of this Bill is to allow localities to determine what happens in their areas. It would be most unfortunate if we had a period where an awful lot of bad will was created by the exact opposite happening, just because some superior authority had failed to get the ducks in a row.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, I strongly support the amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville. I had the pleasure of taking a small deputation to see my noble friend the Minister a couple of weeks ago. It included the chief executive of the National Churches Trust as well as the chief executive of the Heritage Alliance. We discussed a range of issues as we also had a representative from the National Trust present. We had an extremely constructive and amicable meeting, for which I am very grateful to my noble friend. But I do not think that she could fail to have been impressed by the quiet passion expressed by those I took with me on that occasion. A very special concern was expressed by the chief executive of the Theatres Trust. My noble friend has just referred to that.

This is not just a semantic point. There is real substance in his argument and it is not sufficient for any Government or Minister to assert that environmental embraces cultural. Because of the demarcation to which my noble friend referred when he talked about the establishment of the Department of National Heritage, as it originally was, the Government have decided that there is a distinction, but it is not a distinction without a difference. When the Minister replies to this debate, I hope that she will at the very least promise to come back at Third Reading on this issue. I hope that it is not an issue on which we have to divide the House because these matters transcend all party and petty differences. We are concerned about establishing a new system that will be in place, I hope, for a long time. I trust that it will bring real benefit. But it will not bring the real benefit that we all desire unless there is sufficient recognition of the points made so succinctly and admirably by my noble friend. I hope that the Minister will be able to give us at least some comfort when she comes to reply.

[Lord Lucas]

My Lords, perhaps I may address my amendment in the group before we get too far into the speeches. I am addressing a rather different subject, which is to try to make sure that the wording in the Bill will encompass people who are part of the community because they volunteer in it and not because they work in it. I am thinking particularly of, say, a scout leader who has come into an area to create a new scout group. He may not be from the area but he will be an expert community organiser. In the process of this, he will have become someone who really knows and understands the community, and will be a valuable part of the forum. I very much hope that people like that will be included.

Localism Bill

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Lucas

Monday 10th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lucas]

My Lords, in contrast to some of my noble friends, I am very much in favour of the involvement of young people in democracy and in giving them a formal role in it.

[Lord Cormack]

I hope my noble friend will not mind my pointing out that one can be wholly in favour of young people being involved in democracy without necessarily believing that the age of 16 should be the voting age.

[Lord Lucas]

My Lords, of course I believe always in the wisdom of my noble friend, even if my own views differ. I note that the Government, in their wisdom, always intend to legislate that people of any age may be members of a neighbourhood forum; so young people may well take part in the formation of policy for their area. I regret that the age at which they may vote on it remains 18. As noble Lords may remember from Committee, I would like to see it a good deal lower. I think that when you get down to a very small area, young people have a much more active and early understanding of what needs to be done in a locality than perhaps they do when you are trying to balance the affairs of a whole local authority, let alone a country. However, I celebrate the wisdom of the noble Baroness in not putting an age limit on participation in neighbourhood forums, and I very much hope that she will encourage other ways of allowing young people to participate in neighbourhood referenda and other aspects of localism.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, I am provoked into making a few remarks. I entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Tope, that this amendment does not have a place in the Localism Bill. However, like him, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, for raising this issue. I think we must all accept that we have not engaged our young people sufficiently. When we came back for one day after those dreadful riots, I made the point that perhaps we should consider some form of citizenship ceremony for all young people—I believe at the age of 18, although perhaps it could be 16—where they proclaim recognition of their role, their responsibilities and their allegiance. It would demand reciprocation on our part that they have a greater opportunity to participate.

I do not believe and never have believed that the age of 16 is the right age to vote, but that does not invalidate the general point that I am seeking to make and indeed that the noble Baroness was seeking to make in her brief remarks. I will make my remarks equally brief. I hope that when my noble friend the Minister comes to reply, she will at least be able to indicate a general sympathy, just as I hope—when the noble Baroness withdraws her amendment, as I trust she will—that we will be able to recognise that this is not actually part of a mandate from the Government in a localism Bill, as the noble Lord, Lord Tope, said. It is merely an opportunity for us to encourage local authorities throughout the country to address the issue of young people perhaps a little more imaginatively than some of them have done—although by no means all.

House of Lords: Use of Electronic Devices (AWC Report)

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Lucas

Thursday 10th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, I strongly support what my noble friend has just said. I must confess that I do not Google, Twitter, tweet or blog, nor do I have any particular desire to do any of those things, but it seems to me that to have handheld devices in the Chamber is not conducive to good debate and intelligent participation in it. The fundamental reason for my opposing the idea is that it is the beginning of what I would call electronic mission creep—if I can use some jargon. I am very concerned about how instructions could be monitored or enforced. The answer is that they could not be. Therefore, anybody sitting in this Chamber with a handheld device could do anything from googling facts to getting in touch with his bookmaker. I suggest that the committee consider once again the point that has just been made briefly but forcefully by my noble friend.

[Lord Lucas]

My Lords, I very much look forward to using my new iPad, when I get one, on the Education Bill, which amends 17 Acts. I very much hope that the Chairman of Committees will confirm not only that we will have wi-fi access in the Chamber when we come to debate that Bill in May, so that I can get at those documents, but also that we will have easy access to statutes in force, because, as he will remember from his days as a Minister or a Back-Bencher, the Acts that one can have printed in the Printed Paper Office are nothing like those that we are amending. Such access would therefore be immensely useful.

I find rather strange the worry expressed in paragraph 8 about having access to things that are not generally available to participants in proceedings by other means. One of the great reasons why I come to this Chamber is that it is full of people who know things that I do not know and understand things that I do not understand. Are we not supposed to have an equality of arms in this place? The point about being here is that you have access to a lot of people who know things that you do not. If someone happens to know something because they have looked it up on the internet or consulted an authority, rather than having done it in the Library five minutes before, I really do not see the problem.

We should allow ourselves to think about how we are going to catch up with the Commons when it comes to allowing participation by the public. The Commons is now allowing public participation in its Committee stages. Committees accept outside briefing from all sorts of people; they often hold open days when people can come and give evidence in front of them. We cannot do that with our committee system, because we use Committees of the whole House, but lots of people watch our proceedings live on television. If they were submitting to a public site comments on what was going on, why not allow us to read them so that we might see what they were saying and pick up the ideas that they might have? I understand the noble Lord’s difficulty with having us quoting people whom we are picking up off Twitter or some blog, but merely to gain insights and intelligence from people who may have vast practical experience and happen to be watching us on television would be a good thing.

I am grateful to my noble friends for making me feel, for the first time in a while, that I am a member of the younger generation.