Climate Change Policies

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Framlingham

Wednesday 20th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Framlingham (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords—

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Framlingham

Wednesday 4th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Framlingham]

The noble Baroness can put her spin on it. I retain my views—

[Lord Cormack]

Does my noble friend really think he is assisting to enhance the reputation of this House by trashing the reputation of someone who has given decades of service to our country and our party?

[Lord Framlingham]

My Lords, I think it is time for a little honesty. I have watched over the last three years—day in, day out—people pretending to do one thing and doing another, while the 17.4 million people who voted to leave Europe have been very badly served. I am not prepared to put up with it any longer.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Framlingham]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord True has asked me to deal with this amendment and I am pleased to do so. It basically relates to the role of the guillotine in our proceedings and the advisability if we had time, which I fear we do not, of referring it to the Procedure Committee.

It is sometimes forgotten that historically the Opposition’s main weapon against the Government or bad legislation has always been time—time to look at things in detail, but also simply time. When I first became a Member of the House of Commons there was no such thing as a guillotine. The subject before you was treated with respect. Sometimes things took a long time and sometimes they did not, but you were very conscious that, particularly on complex, difficult problems, you had enough time. You would not do the wrong thing because you did not have enough time. That was absolutely crucial.

Then, of course, along one day came the guillotine. It was very rare in those days, but then it became the programme Motion, so it went from being used very rarely to being used occasionally and then becoming, as it is now, entirely routine. The trouble is that, when a Bill in the other place is sent to Committee, the programme Motion decides how much time will be spent on different aspects of the Bill. That is, at very best, a good guess. It is frequently wrong, with the result that too much time—far too much time sometimes—is spent on some sections of the Bill and other sections do not get dealt with at all.

Sometimes, given the increased volume of legislation coming from the other place to your Lordships’ House, this has created great problems. Lots of undigested legislation comes down to us almost like a sausage factory and we have to deal with it and make sure that it is right. To do that we have to have the time that it no longer has. It will be absolutely crackers if we use guillotines as it uses guillotines and give up our right to do the job that it should have done. The public whom we serve will not be well served by that. If we pursue this course, lots of Bills will not be dealt with as efficiently as they are now. To introduce the guillotine to your Lordships’ House just for one specific thing is outrageous, and the thin end of the wedge. Once it is done, once the Rubicon has been crossed, it is much easier to do it again. We should think very carefully before setting this terrible precedent. It smacks of a heavy-handed, authoritarian approach to matters, which, if it were ever translated into government, would have frightening consequences for the people of this country.

[Lord Cormack]

Has it not just had frightening consequences?

[Lord Framlingham]

I do not know how to respond to that. I know my noble friend’s position on this matter. He has stated it time and again. He is not going to change, so I do not think it is worth engaging with him in this way—

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Framlingham

3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 16th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Framlingham (Con)]

My Lords, the days that we have spent debating amendments to the Bill have been very dark days for your Lordships’ House. Sometimes when we have successfully scrutinised a piece of legislation in the past, it has been described as the House at its best. Without any doubt, these days will go down in history as the House of Lords at its worst.

Noble Lords, some of whom have been elected to or worked in Parliament for many years, have used and abused the gentle, forgiving system in your Lordships’ House to further their own ends of stopping us leaving the EU. I have watched and listened with growing concern and incredulity as people who should know better have tabled and spoken to amendments, most of which have been technically out of order and nothing to do with the Bill. I speak as an ex-Deputy Speaker in the other place: it is interesting to note that if we had a Speaker—and that day may now be much nearer than we think—none of the amendments put down by wreckers of the Bill would have been called and the Bill would have been back in the Commons long ago.

I do not know how the House of Commons will deal with the irrelevant amendments we will send to it, but I know that irreparable damage to our reputation has already been done by the antics of these dark days. We have set ourselves up in such a disreputable way, as guardians of wisdom and the common good, in so many of the amendments that we have passed.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

If anybody is doing damage to the reputation of the House, it is my noble friend.

[Lord Framlingham]

That is a chance I will have to take. I do not agree with the noble Lord. I think that I am speaking up for this House, for this country and for what we are trying to do.

I repeat: to set ourselves up in such a disreputable way, as guardians of wisdom and the common good, in so many of the amendments that we have passed, simply in an attempt to wreck the Bill and thwart the will of the people, is both false and dangerous.

Houses of Parliament: World Heritage Site

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Framlingham

Wednesday 26th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, this is a splendid debate, and we are deeply grateful to the noble Baroness for introducing it in the inimitably feisty way in which she did. This House and another place have great reason to be eternally thankful to the noble Baroness, not least for what she said this evening.

When I first entered the House of Commons I could stand on Westminster Bridge and, although realising of course that it was a totally different scene, recognise that the words of Wordsworth, written at the beginning of the 19th century, still resonated:

“Earth has not anything to show more fair”.

I love this building. Over 30 years ago I wrote a book about it, trying to express that affection. However, I quickly became aware that our planning policies were deeply flawed. The first internal parliamentary fight I had—I am glad to say we won—was to defeat a proposal for a 300-foot high bronze and glass building designed by Spence and Webster on the site where Portcullis House now stands. We saw that one off. Michael Hopkins’s Portcullis House is not everybody’s cup of tea, but it is a well mannered building because it respects, in its height, the buildings around it.

It is 40 years ago since I introduced a skyline protection Bill in the other House, because I was conscious of the fact that the great city of Paris was protecting its skyline and we were not. I lost that battle because neither party was prepared to be sufficiently vigorous and vigilant. I level that charge at both major parties; the philistines have prevailed too often, and for too long. Now, as was pointed out by both the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, and the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, to whom we are, again, much in debt, we are threatened with buildings that will destroy the skyline around this great complex of buildings—the Palace, the Abbey and St Margaret’s—in the way that the skyline has been destroyed around St Paul’s. Anyone who has a real feeling for historic buildings only has to look at those great Canalettos and weep internally at what has gone. We could have developed as a vigorous city without raping the skyline. I hope that the call to arms that has been sounded tonight by the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, and echoed by the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, will be heeded. We need a proper debate in this place about the future of the Palace of Westminster.

This Palace is not ours to possess but ours to guard for future generations. I believe that it is the greatest building erected anywhere in the world in the 19th century. Even if noble Lords cannot go along with me as far as that, there is surely no one who can fail to be moved by this wonderful achievement, which is itself symbolic of our country’s history and which contains so much of that history in the statues, the paintings and everything else.

Whether we have to move out for a brief period, I do not know, but the noble Lord, Lord Addington, is quite right to say that we have to consider these things seriously. I hope that we can remain within the Palace, and I am sure that he would like that to be the case, but we have to face the realities. I have been down into the bowels of this building and have seen the wires and the pipes. I know that there is a great problem. Whatever the immediate solution to that problem is, the long-term solution must be the preservation of this place as a symbol of our democracy and for the enjoyment of our people and of people around the world. These three buildings are a priceless asset. They must be preserved and enjoyed. To enjoy them, people have to be able to see them—including from a distance—rather than see that the philistines have prevailed here. I hope that my noble friend, for whom I have great regard and who I know has a personal feeling and affection for great buildings, will be able to give us an encouraging reply this evening.

[Lord Framlingham (Con)]

My Lords, before my noble friend sits down, could I ask him to agree that on world heritage sites, ancient trees are sometimes as important as ancient buildings? The catalpa trees in New Palace Yard, which he and I helped to preserve some 30 years ago, and the pleated lime walk there add immeasurably to the whole atmosphere of the Palace of Westminster.

[Lord Cormack]

Of course I entirely agree. I remember that campaign with great affection. My noble friend is an expert on trees, who came to the rescue by saying: “You do not need to chop them down; they can survive”. So can this place.