Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Faulks

Report stage
Wednesday 12th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Well, my Lords, I had never really thought of the noble Baroness as a bleeding-heart liberal, but we all come in different guises, depending upon the subject. I find myself very taken by many of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames, and by many others who have long been learned in the law.

I spoke to my noble friend the Minister after what the noble Baroness referred to as the slightly fractious debate on Monday. Funnily enough, I said to him that I thought that a royal commission would be a good way—better than an amendment to a Bill—to look at the issue that we were discussing: women in prison. Of course, this provision in the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames, could be incorporated.

On balance, I would favour a royal commission on the criminal justice system. I do not suppose that the noble Lord would be particularly opposed to that, rather than the specific amendment that he is moving today. But we need to look at these things because—coming back to a point made on Monday and today—we are failing in our criminal justice system because there is far too much recidivism and far too many lives are not amended and rehabilitated but further broken and eroded by spending time in prison. We have not got the balance right.

I have always been opposed to the simplistic view sometimes expressed, not by bleeding-heart liberals like the noble Baroness but by some on my own side: “Lock them up and keep them in.” That is no way to tackle things. So, although I would understand if, in responding to this debate, my noble friend the Minister said that he could not accept this amendment, I nevertheless strongly appeal to him on the Floor of the House, as I have privately, to consider very carefully the merits of a royal commission on the criminal justice system.

It can do no harm. We all remember Harold Wilson on royal commissions—they sit for years and take minutes—but that is not necessarily what royal commissions do. They can be given a timeframe or asked to report back within a certain period. If, by chance, my noble friend is not able to give the positive response I hope he might, we have many in your Lordships’ House who are indeed learned in the law, and this might be an ideal subject for one of the special committees that we set up each year in your Lordships’ House. It would have perhaps the most distinguished membership of any such committee ever established and I am sure it could make a powerful report, but I would still favour the royal commission approach. I hope that when my noble friend comes to respond, he will be able to give us some encouragement.

[Lord Faulks (Non-Afl)]

Before we hear from the Minister and the noble Lord for the Opposition, I shall simply add that of course the aims identified in this amendment are probably shared by everybody in your Lordships’ House but, ultimately, is it not for the Government of the day to decide on these things? I think we can probably predict what most royal commissions would recommend following the terms of reference reflecting this amendment. Ultimately, a Government have to decide whether in certain circumstances, as was the case in the Bill, there need to be mandatory sentences or the prison estate needs more money spent on it. These are matters for government. I will be interested to hear what the noble Lord for the Opposition says about this; during the course of the Bill, I do not think the Labour Party has opposed the increased mandatory sentences in various areas. That is a position it is entitled to take. A royal commission can recommend; a Government have to decide.

Criminal Legal Aid Services

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Faulks

Friday 29th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Faulks]

The noble Lord is right that whatever the change in policy, it is important that we are satisfied that there are firms of solicitors that can represent people in whatever part of the country they are needed. When the replacement contracts come to be considered, that is clearly one of the factors that will be taken into account. The noble Lord also asked about the scope of legal aid generally and the exceptional funding provisions. They have been the subject of litigation and further clarification. One of the difficulties was that the forms that had to be filled in were perhaps not as clear as they might be. There has been considerable improvement in that regard, and the percentage of cases where exceptional funding has been obtained as a result of an application has increased considerably.

As a Back-Bencher looking at the LASPO Bill as it went through, I found the provisions on exceptional funding somewhat opaque, referring, as they did, to the Human Rights Act and Article 6. It was not always easy to know quite what the coalition Government were driving at. I think there is increased clarification of that. There has been a decision, although it is subject to appeal, but the noble Lord is right to draw our attention to exceptional funding.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Does my noble friend accept that it is extremely refreshing and encouraging when a Secretary of State listens, not least to the voice of this House, and makes an adjustment and a change of policy? None of us should be churlish in welcoming this very real change. Not the least of its advantages is that it has produced a situation where we have a legal profession that is in tune with the Secretary of State and a Secretary of State who is in tune with the legal profession.

[Lord Faulks]

I am grateful to my noble friend for that intervention. He is right that this House has always held the Ministry of Justice, in particular, to account with the galaxy of legal talent that is available around the Benches. I am certainly aware that any policy change is subject to great and close examination by all those here, not least this particular policy, which I have been asked about a number times in specific debates and in the course of Question and Answers. I reassure my noble friend and the House that the Secretary of State listens to what is said in this House and will continue to do so.

Restorative Justice

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Faulks

Wednesday 18th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Faulks]

My Lords, to clear the blockage, apart from other steps, the new victims’ code, which was published two days ago, now requires the police to pass on victims’ details to RJ service providers unless asked not to do so—in other words, an opt-out. This is in line with the mechanism for referral for other victims’ services. We are working with the Association of Policing & Crime Chief Executives to ensure that its toolkit on information sharing is up to date and are making connections between areas where there is good restorative justice take-up and other areas where there is not such a good take-up.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, have the Government taken carefully into account the experience of Northern Ireland, where there have been some remarkable schemes over the last decade or more?

[Lord Faulks]

The Government are aware that there are a number of schemes, in not only Northern Ireland, but Australia, New Zealand and parts of North America. There is no standardised way of delivering restorative justice but the Government are committed to continuing this as a significant way of improving reoffending rates and providing victims with a reasonable involvement with the criminal justice system.

Arbitration and Mediation Services (Equality) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Faulks

Friday 23rd October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Faulks]

The Government wish people to make free choices on these matters. If someone wishes to make a choice of their own volition, it is no business of the Government to interfere with that. But we also wish to have a system where women, and men if necessary, feel free to make those choices without undue pressures of one sort or another.

Let me be a little more specific about the legislative provisions. The Equality Act 2010 prohibits discrimination on the grounds of gender. The Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 prohibits the intimidation of all witnesses, including victims of domestic violence. The Arbitration Act 1996 allows parties to an arbitration to agree any system of law or rules other than the national law to be applied by the arbitral tribunal to that dispute. I ought to declare an interest as a fellow of the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators, although I have never arbitrated on the sorts of disputes which this debate has been focusing upon. Religious law considerations may be applied in the context of an arbitration only where, first, the parties have specifically agreed to the arbitral process, and secondly, where all the parties have specifically chosen to use religious law considerations. But even then the decisions of such tribunals is subject to review by the courts of England and Wales on a number of grounds. If any of the decisions or recommendations were in direct conflict with a mandatory provision of national law, the law of England and Wales must always prevail.

The Arbitration Act sets out a number of safeguards, including a duty for arbitrators to act fairly and reasonably between parties. No one should feel pressured or coerced into resolving their dispute in a particular way. Any member of any community has the right to refer to a civil court in England and Wales at any point, particularly if they feel pressured or coerced to resolve an issue or to accept a decision that is unfair or unlawful. If there has been coercion, the outcome of any mediation or arbitration cannot be enforced.

I return now to the point made by my noble friend Lord Elton. That is not to say that all our citizens have equal knowledge of access to their rights within the national law or that other measures cannot be taken to improve the situation. It is the Government’s view that the problems raised by the noble Baroness are due to a lack of awareness of rights, unequal access to the law and barriers to integration rather than a lack of protection within the current law. Integration requires changes to society, not necessarily changes to the law. The issues and barriers involved are often complex, and solving these problems is not just a job for the Government. It is also important that communities and community organisations take the lead in supporting equality and integration and help to raise expectations and awareness so that the rights of women and of all citizens are understood and protected.

[Lord Cormack]

I am grateful to my noble friend, who is disappointing me a little. Does he not feel that the Government have a duty to promote awareness? It is all very well saying that people should be more aware—we can all agree on that—but do not the Government have a role in this?

Humanist Marriages

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Faulks

Tuesday 2nd June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Faulks]

Certainly humanists are key stakeholders. They took a significant part in the consultation. More than 60% of responses were from humanists or individuals who responded as part of a perfectly appropriate campaign, and I can assure the noble Lord that they will be consulted.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, as a Christian who found the changes we made to the meaning of marriage in the previous Parliament somewhat difficult, I completely accept that the law has now been changed. I find it difficult to understand any logical objection to what the noble Baroness is calling for this afternoon. I hope that we can have an early decision on this and hope that my noble friend can reassure me.

Offenders: Rehabilitation

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Faulks

Thursday 27th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their policy on the rehabilitation of offenders who have served their sentences and wish to resume their careers.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Faulks) (Con)]

My Lords, most convictions become spent after a specified period and the person is then treated as though they had not committed the offence. The Government have reduced rehabilitation periods and allowed more convictions to become spent. However, to maintain public protection, certain spent convictions are disclosed for sensitive occupations.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his Answer, but would he not accept that sending someone to prison is the punishment and that the purpose of prison, wherever possible, should be to rehabilitate so that that person can return to normal life and live a normal life? I accept that that is not always possible, but in most cases it should be. It is grievous to think of young people, in particular, who have had a successful career but who have made a mess, not being allowed to do that and almost being encouraged to reoffend.

Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Faulks

Wednesday 8th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Faulks]

It might be, but the problem is that the test for harassment is fraught with imprecision, as is any test that any Government might provide. Whether something gets over the hurdle of harassment will be somewhat uncertain. No doubt it will be argued in a particular case that it does not go far enough to constitute harassment, but it will nevertheless be anti-social behaviour by anybody’s definition.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

So what is the objection to having harassment in the Bill?

[Lord Faulks]

The objection is that there is a risk that the hurdle will be too high and that the judge will say, “This is extremely anti-social behaviour and I profoundly sympathise with the individual but, looked at under the definition of harassment, it does not go quite that far”. That behaviour could be completely ruinous of an individual’s life, but perhaps not have that quasi-criminal description that the substitute definition has.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Faulks]

Of course I entirely accept the noble Lord’s point that those in social housing may not have options and therefore certainly need the protection at a lower level. My point was that it is rather inelegant to have a different test where there might theoretically be greater room for manoeuvre if there is a private tenant. The test ought to be the same.

I was repeating the fact that I sympathise with all those who have spoken in favour of the various freedoms that we value so much in this country. If we vote in favour of the amendment—if it is put to a vote—we will of course be able to congratulate ourselves and say that we have acted in the finest traditions of freedom. I will have the good fortune of going back to my house where, at least at the moment, there is no great history of anti-social behaviour in the area. Other noble Lords will perhaps be in a similar position. But let us not forget those who are in less fortunate circumstances, who do not have room for manoeuvre and whose lives are made totally miserable by this anti-social behaviour. I fear that if we accede to this argument, we will fail to take them sufficiently into consideration and will make bad law.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, we have just heard an interesting speech from my noble friend Lord Faulks. I am sure that I speak for every Member of your Lordships’ House in congratulating him on his forthcoming move to the Front Bench—because, as we all know, he is to be Minister very soon. It is therefore hardly surprising that he should have spoken with such passion in support of the Bill.

[Lord Faulks]

I am grateful to my noble friend for his kind congratulations, but I should say that I spoke on this issue in Committee before I was appointed, to very much the same effect.

[Lord Cormack]

One is tempted to call that “cause and effect”, but I will not.

This noble House concluded its contentious business somewhat earlier than we had expected last night. I went home and turned on BBC Four, on which there was a most remarkable programme on the Salvation Army in which various officers made some extremely sincere but perhaps contentious statements. One gentleman in particular made the point that anyone who did not believe in Jesus Christ, as many of us do, was in fact condemned to eternal damnation. Imagine that being said on a street corner or anywhere else. Do we really want to deny people with sincere and genuine beliefs the opportunity of expressing them? I have always felt—although I did not agree with many of the things ascribed to him—that Voltaire had it right when he said, “I detest what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”. That really should be implicit in all our legislation.

I find it somewhat difficult to accept that a Conservative Government or—let me correct myself—a Conservative-led Government are prepared to introduce this lower threshold in the Bill. Although my noble friend Lord Faulks said that it was different from the debate that we had on insulting a little over a year ago, and of course in some senses it is, nevertheless it is similar. It is also very different from what was implicit in the Defamation Act that came into force just a week ago today, whereby we introduced legislation—quite rightly, in my view—that makes it more difficult to engage in frivolous and vexatious complaining.

In this particular provision, in this clause of the Bill —much of which I approve of—we are seeking to lower a threshold and in the process place many people in possible danger of having their civil liberties, including their right to speak as they would, taken away from them. Of course I accept, as my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern accepts, that it is right that social housing should be treated differently—of course it is. In his intervention a few moments ago, my noble friend Lord Elton put that point succinctly and correctly.