Small Business Commissioner (Scope and Scheme) Regulations 2017

Debate between Lord Cope of Berkeley and Lord Mendelsohn

Wednesday 6th December 2017 Grand Committee

[Lord Cope of Berkeley (Con)]

My Lords, I too welcome these regulations and the start of this operation. I also welcome Paul Uppal to his job and wish him the best of good fortune in carrying it out. As my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe said, the application of these regulations goes for quite a few pages, so I hope that the website will be a good deal clearer and shorter so that small businesses can understand them.

Prompt payment or the lack of it has been a stubborn problem over many years and successive Governments. All sorts of things have been done in the past to try to improve the situation, and this is one more. I hope that it works successfully. I hope also that the website will point out that these regulations concern only small businesses not being paid by larger businesses. There is a separate operation known as the Small Business Crown Representative whose job it is to make sure that small businesses are paid by government departments and agencies. I think that the website should cross-reference this point because, as we know from the past, these agencies can sometimes be a problem.

Lastly, I hope that the Explanatory Memorandum is wrong in one respect. It states on page 3:

“There is no impact on business”.


I hope that that is a sort of technical way of explaining that the actual laying down of the details will not have an impact, but that the new role will have a considerable impact on small businesses and indeed on charities and voluntary bodies, which are also covered.

[Lord Mendelsohn (Lab)]

My Lords, I am absolutely crestfallen that the noble Lord, Lord Cope, has found the thing that I was going to start my contribution with, which is the phrase in the notes that the regulations will not affect business. My fear is that this is not a statutory instrument that will do the job in the way we hope it will. I want to preface my remarks by saying how nice it is to see the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, in her place. During the passage of the relevant provisions for the Small Business Commissioner in the Bill, she said at one point that she might even consider the role herself. I am pleased that she is still in this House campaigning on many issues, and I have to say that she has been saved by the appointment of an excellent candidate. I welcome Paul Uppal to his role as the Small Business Commissioner. He will make an excellent commissioner because he has great attributes for the role, given his background and approach. I congratulate the Government on securing such a person.

My only fear is that this statutory instrument is an illustration of why the Government are humbling the role before it has a chance of success. No matter what the quality of the person, I see tremendous difficulties ahead in being able to make any meaningful change. Yet again we have gone for a system where we have decided to invent a wheel that has four sides. My concern is that this does not work in any established model or precedent. It does not have any behavioural testing or pilots to demonstrate that it can achieve any of the outcomes. I will go through some of the policy issues and then through the statutory instrument.

First, I was really impressed with the department for its policy background in the Explanatory Notes because this is a huge exercise. The department is to be given huge credit for finding the lowest possible estimation of late-payment debt available in this country. It is certainly true that the BACS survey has far and away the lowest estimates of it for small businesses, by saying that it is just over £14 billion. In fact the average of all the surveys which I found was the Zurich survey, which had £44 billion for SMEs. Why have the Government therefore chosen the veracity of the BACS report? Would the Minister like to tell me, for example, the survey size of that report? I happen to know the answer but I would be keen to hear it from him. Of all the 14 available surveys that I found of late payments, none had a figure as absurd as that. Where does the survey fit in on a sample size—is it at the top, the middle or the end? Can he also tell me for how many years BACS has conducted a survey and what was the methodological change this year to have come out with such a figure? Seeing this figure alone, my concern is that I do not feel that the Government are taking this problem seriously. This will also affect the estimates to come thereafter of what the Government think will be necessary to do this.

Secondly, yet again, I understand the Government’s desperate desire not to do too much and to believe that cultural change, in and of itself, will make a huge difference. I know they will say that the Prompt Payment Code is causing all sorts of wonderful cultural changes that are making a huge difference. We may have that code but I would like to ask a few questions. Can the Minister give me any evidential base whatever to suggest that the Prompt Payment Code has made any change, apart from a Minister who I have found saying, “I’ve spoken to some people and they say they like it”? Can he give me anything with any independent foundation for doing it? Can he demonstrate any example, among the many identified in government reports or in the press, where a company that is a problem late payer and a member of the Prompt Payment Code has been disciplined, chucked out or taken to task for anything that it has done? It is a pretty hard case to make but I would be interested to hear his reflections on that.

It is a shame that the public sector is not included in this provision. I understand that there is a different commissioner and that the argument has always been that because there are definable terms of 30 days, it is not necessary because there is a different mechanism. But I think the overall success of the Small Business Commissioner will be through its ability to get underneath the issues that lie behind problems of late payments. That includes issues around the public sector and its suppliers, where there is a supply chain. It should be able to make the right sort of assessments of that sector. Taking the sector away humbles the Small Business Commissioner’s capacity to take an overall view of late payments. Those are all significant concerns.

I return to the issue about size because it is relevant. I think it is anticipated that the Small Business Commissioner will have establishment costs of £1.1 million and is meant to have a running cost of £1.4 million. I would be grateful to have a breakdown of the staff who comprise that £1.4 million and therefore how many hours of investigative time we think we will have. I also understand that the Government—on the basis of an utterly ridiculous figure of £14.4 billion, but that is another matter—say that the estimate is that 70,000 companies will be referring just under 400,000 disputes, of which 500 will result in full-blown complaints. While I am tempted to ask the Minister what percentage of the overall disputes will therefore result in a full-blown complaint, I can tell him for the benefit of time that it is 0.125%. Can he explain how the Government match that level of complaint to the staffing and what they are required to carry out through the statutory instrument? I have tried on the back of an envelope—in fact, multiple envelopes because it took so long to do the maths—to see how you can spend the amount of money involved in the establishment of it and end up with that number, and I just cannot do it. I would be very grateful if the Minister, on the basis of the bogus number, will tell us how this is meant to operate, how much time is allocated to each dispute, and how that will work. That would be very helpful indeed.

Unfortunately, I have some other issues with the actual drafting of the statutory instrument. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, that brevity and simplicity are wonderful. There is nothing like brevity and simplicity and this statutory instrument is nothing like brevity and simplicity. I am tempted to say that I worry when a Government overregulate. This is an example of overregulation, when better regulation would be much more judicious.

The biggest problem I have with the statutory instrument is that fundamentally it regulates the size, not the activity. I talked this through with a lawyer and said, “If I am a big company, how do I change this? I just move the dispute that I have to a small company and I am no longer on the hook for it”. The ability to drive a coach and horses through this and to avoid any form of dispute or mediation or any cost by changing the structure or who holds the debt or who holds the activity is easy within these terms. Which lawyers reviewed this? Which scenarios did they plan for? Did they understand the opportunity to game it? This is important. As we have seen with the application of the role of the Pubs Code Adjudicator, a coach and horses has been driven through that one and absolutely nothing has happened. I would rather the Government were realistic at the very beginning about what was likely to happen.

As we all know, there is always the law of unintended consequences in these matters. In relation to the size, does the Minister think there will be any unintended consequences of setting a number? Will that exclude certain disputes that should be part of it? Should there be provision for the Small Business Commissioner to be able to apply discretion in certain circumstances, rather than it being as prescriptive as it is?

Then we move to the issue in Regulation 3, which is titled, “Requirements before presenting a complaint to the Commissioner”. It says that in order to pursue a complaint,

“the person making the complaint must … communicate the substance of the complaint to the person against whom the complaint is made; and … give that person a reasonable opportunity to deal with it”.

The definition of “a reasonable opportunity” is quite difficult. In truth, it is a payment that is late. We say that we have a condition for late payment, rather similar to that in the public sector, of days on which you can apply interest, and we then specify a reasonable opportunity to deal with it. If it is late, it is late. Again, we have created a huge opportunity for a sense in which a complaint can now be a reasonable complaint and you can probably delay to the average number of days. Whether you believe the bogus BACS survey which said it was 72 days, I think, or the other average that most others identify, which is 90 days, you can still extend much further on the basis of what is a definably reasonable opportunity to deal with it.

Then we have the wonderful paragraph (2). This is always the issue. The Minister correctly identified the problem of a company which may face adverse commercial consequences from raising the issue. It says here:

“The specified circumstances are where the Commissioner considers for this particular complaint, there is sufficient information to suggest that communicating it to the person against whom it is made would have a significant detrimental effect on the commercial interests of the person making it”.


Will the Minister please define for me in detail what this “sufficient information to suggest” is? I think that is a remarkable thing to put down and, again, it fetters the Small Business Commissioner’s scope.

I could go on but I will cut out a few comments because the point is being made. I could go on about the time limit for presenting a complaint. For example, when you are dealing with a company such as Amazon, which many of our small businesses do, it has a procedure which takes a year in the first place. Are we out of scope from the time you make a complaint to when it is defined? Again, it fetters the Small Business Commissioner in a much more serious way. In particular, Regulation 5(4) says:

“Where the complaint or part of the complaint is not made within the time limit set out in paragraph (1), the Commissioner must not entertain the complaint”.


By the way, in this context I am absolutely shocked to see—having had many a debate with the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, on this matter, with huge arguments over “may” or “must”—the remarkable number of times “must” appears in relation to the Small Business Commissioner. Again, he,

“must not entertain the complaint”.

That is also a huge mistake.

On the power of the commissioner to fix time limits, again, we have here perhaps the best powers given to the Small Business Commissioner, which are discretionary. I would like to see an awful lot more of those. On the power of the commissioner to dismiss a complaint, again a charter is given for people to be able to suggest that the complaint can be reasonably dismissed, and there are now eight headings that qualify the decision of the Small Business Commissioner on whether to dismiss a complaint. I spent time with my lawyer, and as a big company you could pull a case together on pretty much half of these anyway, on almost any circumstance. Therefore the Government have now given an ability to argue the case and to create a legal obstacle for the Small Business Commissioner to take up the issue in the first place.

These are huge mistakes. I could go on about the notifications and how overly problematic they are. My basic point is that we will have to pass these things—that is the natural course of things in this place—because we need the Small Business Commissioner up and running. But they are deeply flawed, as they were from the time we tried to raise these issues during the passage of the Act up to now, when they are being put forward in a statutory instrument. The only assurance we can get, apart from some reasonable answers to not unreasonable questions, is on what the mechanisms will be to review it early—not late, as we faced with the Pubs Code Adjudicator, where problems are now faced because we have a restrictive three years for review—more seriously, quickly and appropriately, to ensure that we can adjust the scope and role of the Small Business Commissioner to adequately deal with these issues. I hope that that may mean that there is a new role for the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe.

Enterprise Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Cope of Berkeley and Lord Mendelsohn

Wednesday 25th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cope of Berkeley]

My Lords, there are two amendments in this group. As the noble Lord has just explained, the first is about a persistent offender or repeated complaints, and it proposes a fine. The way that the fine is introduced is very unusual in comparison with most times when we introduce a fine into statute. I do not so much complain about that—it is perhaps a drafting matter—but there it is.

Amendment 15 would give very wide powers to the Secretary of State, on the advice of the commissioner, to make an enormous number of very complicated regulations—also leading, incidentally, to a fine if they are not complied with. That is the wrong thing to do, certainly at this point in the development of the Small Business Commissioner role. As we said earlier, he or she should focus on the issue of late payment, and introducing all this machinery changes the nature of what is happening. I do not support Amendment 15 in particular.

[Lord Mendelsohn]

My Lords, we support the thrust of the argument presented by the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, that it is very important to put some significant measures behind the attempt to arrest late payments. We are supportive of the Small Business Commissioner trying to do something, but we are realistic that the evidence and pattern demonstrate that it will insufficient.

I will identify one particular aspect. I am grateful that the Minister wrote to me about late payment data—a matter that we discussed in Committee. Late payments are already defined in law, and that definition has been largely in force since the introduction of the Late Payment of Commercial Debts Regulations 2013, which amended the Late Payment of Commercial Debts (Interest) Act 1998. This establishes that, where a public authority purchases goods or services, statutory interest—the determination that there is a late payment—will start to run on an outstanding payment from 30 days after the supplier’s invoice is received. For other organisations and businesses where a payment period has not been agreed, statutory interest will start to run on outstanding payments from 30 days after the supplier’s invoice is received. Where a payment period is specified in the contract, statutory interest will start to run from that date. However, if the agreed payment period is more than 60 days after the events listed, the regulations state that statutory interest will begin to run from 60 days.

The important principle is that we have already established in law that, as far as we are concerned, late payment arises, at a maximum, at 60 days in relation to private sector organisations. I say that largely because we have had a variety of data problems regarding the extent of late payments. I am extremely sceptical about the data on which the department is relying—namely, the Bacs data on late payments. The reason I am sceptical is that that body makes it absolutely clear that it considers late payment to be 30 days after the agreed payment date between two parties. Even if you have a payment date of 90 days, Bacs will only consider a period of 30 days after that as being a late payment, so it purposely excludes all those other payments which are technically defined as late payments under the existing law. That is why the Bacs figures always come out as significantly lower than those of any other survey. In fact, over the last three months, the range of late payments is identified as being between £41 billion and £61 billion. Bacs identifies the sum owed to small businesses as £26 billion. I do not think that those figures are reliable. We should deal with the problem that we have defined in law—namely, that a late payment is a late payment after 60 days.

This is an important amendment as it tries to give a sense of the extent of late payments that we have to deal with and the measures that we and noble Lords throughout the House believe are required to arrest that situation. The velocity of the increase in the incidence of this problem continues to rise without any material abatement.

It may be useful to give a real-life example to illustrate whether soft or hard measures are required. In December 2013, Debenhams was roundly condemned when the chief financial officer, Simon Herrick, sent out a so-called “Santa tax” letter to suppliers just eight days before Christmas imposing a unilateral 2.5% cut on their prices. At the time, analysts saw that as a last-minute attempt to boost falling profit margins. In January 2014, the store chain issued a profit warning, following a disastrous Christmas trading period, and the CFO resigned. He had previously come under fire in October, when Debenhams’ half-year results revealed that it had spent an astonishing sum moving its headquarters to a very opulent site in Regent’s Place, Euston. Analysts and investors said that the scale of these costs had not been flagged and that the £25 million refurbishment of the Oxford Street store was completed just in time for Christmas but had caused considerable disruption to trading.

Over the intervening period there have been complaints about the continued extension of Debenhams’ payment terms. It was a real concern to read that the Federation of Small Businesses rightly criticised Debenhams after it emerged that the department store chain was asking for discounts in return for making earlier payments. In fact, Debenhams insists on a reduction of nearly 2% in suppliers’ prices in exchange for making payments 30 to 60 days earlier. That gives noble Lords some idea of the extent of its current policy on payment terms. This is the second time in three years that the retailer has unilaterally proposed changes to suppliers’ payments in the run-up to Christmas.

I was very interested to hear the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, say that PR and publicity drive culture change which changes behaviour. I do not think there has been a company more in the headlines for its poor practices on changing suppliers’ prices than Debenhams but that has not changed that company’s behaviour one bit. It has done exactly the same thing again. I am a student of some great public relations practitioners. Indeed, we have such a practitioner in this House in the person of the noble Lord, Lord Bell. He has always made the great point that good PR is always founded on substance. That has a strong part to play in the issue we are discussing. Clear adherence to regulation will determine whether or not change will happen. It will not be determined by whether or not companies can withstand a bit of poor publicity. The noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, referred to the glare of warm publicity surrounding Lidl’s decision to pay its staff the living wage and said that that demonstrates that all is well. I would be interested to hear whether she knows the payment date terms that Lidl applies. They are extremely long. In fact, Lidl has been roundly criticised for them. Clearly, one bit of glaring positive publicity does not obviate or change the culture of the company.

It is important to note that the amendment contains a variety of significant powers. In fact, it is a few amendments pushed together into one, as those who attended any of the Grand Committee sessions will know. We have done this to make the point in a number of ways that we are failing to address some of the most serious principal issues, the first being that, despite there being a clear law that allows people to charge interest, they do not do it for fear of retribution. Despite having clear rules about payment terms, people still do not adhere to them because they can get away with it by unilaterally determining a payment term. Even when companies extend payment terms to, for example, 120 days, as many do, they will not be able to charge interest for fear of retribution.

We also have a huge concern about the variety of ways in which companies add terms, unilaterally change terms and create the sorts of commercial arrangements that penalise small businesses, because they can get away with it. Be it marketing charges or warehousing costs, a variety of methods are used to reduce the amount outstanding to a smaller business. All those sorts of matters act as a massive impediment to the growth and development of small businesses. Frankly, even if it is not about growth but about justice for someone trying to run a small business and having to make sure that they do not suffer the terrible consequences of trying to borrow on credit cards—as far too many do, and they suffer enormous costs for doing so—when a large supplier fails to live up to its side of the bargain and the small business has limited options with which to address it, these are the matters that we need to address. It is the sheer size of the problem that we have to address, and there are a number of ways in which this can be done.

Our amendment suggests that the Small Business Commissioner can play a useful role, although not the only role. We also support measures in their own right to try to ensure that it is the obligation of the larger company—or indeed anyone who owes money—to pay it and not to have to be chased. In our view, it is not going to be a question of whether, in dealing with 500 cases and having a very active press officer, the Small Business Commissioner will be able to make a dent in £40 billion, £50 billion or £60 billion-worth of late payments. He or she has to be able to make sure that we build a culture whereby if you are meant to pay, you pay.

Enterprise Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Cope of Berkeley and Lord Mendelsohn

Wednesday 4th November 2015 Grand Committee

[Lord Cope of Berkeley (Con)]

My Lords, I disagree with the last point the noble Lord made. If the Government wish to propose an amendment of this kind, the Committee stage is exactly the right place to do it. That is where it can be discussed in detail and at length. If it were not introduced until Report, I think that people would complain about that and about the more restricted nature of the debate that would take place. Therefore, I do not think that my noble friend the Minister should apologise for introducing it in Committee. On the contrary, she should be congratulated on that.

[Lord Mendelsohn (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare an interest in that I have a corporate finance business. We have not commercially done any work in this sector, although we informally provided some advice on this area.

I welcome the discussion and the introduction of this amendment. I will preface my comments by saying that we on this side take a very questioning view of these provisions in Grand Committee, and we are more than happy to adapt our view to explanations that are forthcoming. We may take a different view on Report, but we have far more questions now than we are comfortable with as regards this provision. I thought that the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, was very good, and I share a lot of the reservations that the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, just expressed.

I will give a sense of where we are coming from on this. Our overall concern at this stage is that this is all tactics and no strategy. Our query is whether there is a strategy, but this tactic does not tell us what it is. Our concern is that as a tactic in and of itself it is probably incorrect. We understand the Government’s stated objectives, which are that they want to grow the business and make it possible to take on a wider range of sectors, to have a multiplying impact on mobilising investments and to encourage private sector enterprises to get the green investment tide rolling. Of course, nothing makes that happen more effectively than beneficial public policy, and I am not sure that we have had a great deal of that or that it is encouraged in a lot of the areas that the Government had previously wished to encourage, but that is another matter that I may return to later.

There is also no doubt that the Green Investment Bank has indeed had some successes. I will also state that its structure, the recruitment of the staff and many of the aspects of the operation that exist are to be commended. It is a good team and a good group of people, and they have played a very good role in triggering great attention and focus, trying to lever investment and interest in green investment. The costs of the bank are not inconsiderable; I think the run rate is now probably something in the region of around £30 million, which is covered by a grant from the Government. That will soon fall on its operating budget, which does not currently exist, although with the establishment of its most recent fund it now has some management fees to be able to offset that.

However, we take a different view about the green investment market, and the notion that things are all hunky-dory and that things have completely changed is patently not the case. It is absolutely clear that the green funds are underperformers, and it is certainly true that a number of green investments have vanished; the participation of an institution such as the Green Investment Bank has provided reassurance and time for investment professionals to be able to work out a number of the details which other commercial organisations do not have the time or ability to do. It is also true that the investments are quite hard to sell and that in many cases the funds will end up being recurring revenue streams and will be sold on that basis. It is also true that the price of oil is still low, having tumbled, which means that exploration becomes less economic, reducing supply and increasing the problems with the viability of renewable markets. Indeed, fairly recently Jan-Willem Bode, the director of one of the largest green energy organisations in the UK, said that many shareholders,

“feel like pulling the plug right now because it is just too much negativity thrown at the sector”.

That was in relation to the Government’s approach to green subsidies. Dwindling demand and low supply in the energy market have not boded well for a floundering alternative in the energy investment market. It is therefore not entirely accurate to take the view that everything is absolutely fine.

I believe that the bank has had a tremendous success most recently with its most recent subsidiary, the Green Investment Bank financial services fund, which is focused on offshore wind. I want to make the point that offshore wind is in a different category—it has a totally commercially viable fund capacity. The new generation of offshore wind equipment is larger and much more efficient and is something the market can already take up. I do not want to undermine the success of the bank; it is good that it did it, but that success is not an exemplar, nor does it prove a variety of other things. In fact, it is the exception which, in many ways, proves the rule.

The key to the Government’s argument is that this is a technical amendment needed to satisfy the Office for National Statistics. In another place, there was recently a debate on this and there was assurance that this amendment does not change or alter the objectives of the Bill, or even close in the articles for assisting in other green projects. There was assurance that these objectives will remain and that the bank will be fully committed to them. Our analysis is that this is clearly not the case.

Enterprise Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Cope of Berkeley and Lord Mendelsohn

Monday 26th October 2015 Grand Committee

[Lord Cope of Berkeley]

My Lords, at Second Reading I referred to this question of public authorities. I repeat my view that it would be helpful if public authorities were included as well as larger businesses. I understand some of the reluctance from my noble friend and the Government to include public authorities in this, because there are other arrangements to which people or businesses can go to complain and get mediation in disputes with local authorities. However, the powers of the Small Business Commissioner as set out in the Bill are, for example, to give “general advice and information” on these questions. In doing that, why should not the Small Business Commissioner also be able to provide general advice and information to small businesses about how to go about dealing with a local authority that is not paying them promptly? That is what this is about.

Of course, there is another angle to Amendment 2. The noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, would not only include public authorities here but also omit the words,

“relating to payment matters in connection with the supply of goods”.

The noble Lord’s amendment would widen very considerably the amount of complaints that the Small Business Commissioner might get and I am less sympathetic to that element of it. I accept the argument that my noble friend made about focusing the efforts of the Small Business Commissioner. In time, once the commissioner’s office is established and working well, it might be right to suggest increasing the elements of business relationships that the Small Business Commissioner was able to look into, but let them start off with what has been one of the most perennial problems I can recall for at least 40 years, where there have been political complaints about late payment, the problems of small businesses and so on.

We all know why there is this problem; it is because of the cash-flow pressures on larger and smaller businesses. It has been such a difficult problem that, to my knowledge, all successive Governments over the past 40 years have looked at and tried to deal with it, including me when I was a small firms Minister in Margaret Thatcher’s Government. Frankly, none of the solutions proposed has really been very successful. That is why I am happy for the Small Business Commissioner to concentrate, at least in the first instance, on this particular issue. I do not support that element of the noble Lord’s amendment.

While I am on my feet, I apologise to the Committee but I will have to leave before long because I am a member of the House Committee and we are having our first ever joint meeting with the House of Commons Commission at five o’clock, which I should attend in spite of attractions in other parts of the building. I wanted to make that point to reinforce what I said at Second Reading.

[Lord Mendelsohn]

I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, on his presentation of this amendment and the basket of amendments that it covers. It had strong support from the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, and for exactly the right reasons. That is very powerful.

To try and encapsulate this, these amendments are about a couple of very obvious things. First, the brief is too selective because there are organisations outside the terms currently drawn in the Bill but for which the flow of late payments or other matters become an issue. Secondly, the issue of the public sector is an incredibly obvious one.

Two angles to this issue are hugely relevant: the issue around payments and the business environment. They are connected and relate also to the Small Business Commissioner as late payments are rarely about just the egregious actions of a particular company. As the noble Lord, Lord Cope of Berkeley, said, in many cases very difficult issues arise with cash flow. These will rarely be solved by treating this matter as just a singular dispute between two parties. You have to consider the wider impacts on the business environment and the fact that late payment can be remedied only by taking a wider view and taking into account the capacity of the Small Business Commissioner to act in relation to the business environment in general.

If there is a problem with cash flow, you can shout at the businesses for as long as you like, but it means that one and possibly both are struggling. All of a sudden, if you tilt the balance too much one way, it may lead to one of the businesses closing down. The Small Business Commissioner is meant to be an agent who can create the right solutions. The Australian model has evolved great skill in creating what is called in Australia “commercially realistic solutions” rather than just determining right and wrong. Its great attribute is its credibility and authority and the scope of who it can deal with, not just its focus. If you deal with late payments just in terms of the circumstances of the two parties, you miss the point about the ongoing cash flow. Whether it is a case of large company contracts or small company contracts, a dispute between two parties is part of the problem.

Amendments 13 and 18 address the fact that 70% of small business trade is with other small businesses. Satago is a fantastic company with terrifically rich data. However, it highlighted the fact that under the Bill it is very hard for small businesses to come forward with some of the complaints we are discussing. Our amendments would help to ensure that whether it is a case of small businesses, large businesses or the public sector, the Small Business Commissioner cannot just deal with payment problems but can also take a wider view of the business environment. As I say, this is not just about disputes between two parties but about making sure that the overarching view is the right one.

Government regulation of small businesses should focus on addressing information balance and creating fair competition. While small business legislation should protect small and medium-sized businesses, the net outcome should be an enhanced competitive and fair operating environment for all business. Government involvement in small business matters should aim at ensuring that both prospective and ongoing small businesses have sufficient knowledge to make informed business decisions. While any business has a fundamental right of control over positioning and maximising its business opportunities, this right does not extend to engaging in unfair business practices. Small business should be able to access a low-cost informal dispute resolution forum prior to any grievances proceeding to formal litigation. These things are crucially important.

The business environment covers everything from where you get credit, which terms you establish, to how the logistics support the delivery of goods. All those things are relevant to late payment. If you want to deliver with a practical solution, sometimes you can mediate between two parties. However, sometimes the Small Business Commissioner needs to draw on the experience of others. These amendments are not just about the disputes mentioned by other noble Lords and dealing directly with certain problems; they deal with payment matters in general rather than just specific payment disputes. These things are important even as regards how you design a procurement process and the flow of money that comes from it, as this can sometimes be part of the problem. We should allow the Small Business Commissioner to draw on wider experience to promote an environment where late payments are less likely to occur.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Cope of Berkeley]

My Lords, incidentally, the other meeting I was due to attend did not raise a quorum.

Nobody has so far spoken in support of Amendment 8 so it is perhaps unnecessary for me to speak against it. However, it has been formally moved. I think that inserting a duty or giving a duty to the commissioner that she or he should publish information about,

“tax rates, allowances and thresholds of relevance to small business”

would introduce a major distraction into the commissioner’s role. It is the duty of Her Majesty’s Revenue & Customs to publish the allowances, rates and everything else, and it does so with considerable vigour on its websites. There are large numbers of people, including people in the profession in which I qualified, although I have not practised for many years—namely, chartered accountancy—who do this kind of thing. If the commissioner finds himself or herself with a legal duty written into the Bill to publish this kind of information, I fear that it will be a major distraction from what we all want to see as the commissioner’s initial role, at any rate; that is, to deal with the late payment issues.

[Lord Mendelsohn]

My Lords, I support these amendments and will say a few words about Amendment 8, to address the comments made on it by the noble Lord, Lord Cope of Berkeley. Fortunately, the noble Lord is able to be present as the other meeting he was due to attend did not gain a quorum.

I pay tribute to the fantastic work of my noble friend Lord Mitchell on payday lenders. I disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson: this is not about the visible and invisible parts of an iceberg but about the devil and the deep blue sea. The problem is that the choice we are making is between two things that are broadly unacceptable. It was only through the great efforts of my noble friend Lord Mitchell that we understood that Wonga, which has completely changed its business model, operated in a market based on pushing people into failure to pay, rapidly increasing their debt burden over time and charging effectively a permanent rate of interest. That was its business model—to force people into continued and prolonged debt. To my noble friend’s great credit, Wonga has changed that model as it could not continue to function with it. This is relevant to the Small Business Commissioner as we should not accept the principle of choosing between one thing which is bad and another thing which is really bad. His job is to find an alternative. We all know that there are problems with people accessing finance and with debt and with our banking sector. The answer is not to say that it could get a whole lot worse but to enable someone to act as an agent or agency and make a difference. That is why I think this is a very sensible amendment.

Some years ago when I operated a small business, we had a tax issue and a little tête-à-tête with Her Majesty’s Revenue & Customs. There was a particular issue that we contested. Rather than pay—forgive me for saying this—the fees our accountants would charge to deal with this, we thought we would do it on our own. We had a particularly effective financial controller and he spent a considerable amount of time trying to research this. In fact, we funded him to go on a day’s seminar given by HMRC to look at the particular issue. He attended the seminar and came back with a series of materials that gave very clear advice on the problem. Subsequently, we wrote to HMRC saying that this was our case, completely consistent with its advice. It wrote back saying that it did not accept our arguments. We wrote to it saying that we could not claim the letter we had written was entirely our authorship but was based on advice we now enclosed, which came from HMRC. We got a letter back saying, “We are not bound by our own advice”.

That was a few years ago but I raise the point because it is relevant. Our experience in talking to small businesses in particular but also to some of the representative organisations is that their complaint is not that they must pay tax. There are some who do not like to pay tax—many of those live in Monaco and other sorts of places, but they are not the ones I am so concerned about here. For those who are concerned about paying tax, it is about paying the right tax and understanding the taxes that they must pay. In the same way, it is about not regulation per se but the burdens of regulation. These amendments address this question. They say that the Small Business Commissioner should be able to deal with those issues.

I accept that we have a particularly narrow focus for the commissioner, and it is what the prime focus should be. However, in that wonderful nirvana where the commissioner can extend its role, it would not be a bad thing to be able to assist small businesses to have a better understanding of and some degree of certainty about the issues that they must face and the taxes they must pay, as well as being able to make observations to others to be clearer so that there is better compliance and understanding of what these things are. I fear this constant sense that there is a huge amount of non-payment and total avoidance, and all sorts of scandals and terrible practices by business. Invariably, especially with small businesses, they are not fully aware of what they must do. These amendments allow a Small Business Commissioner to play a very effective role in that area.

Finally, on Amendment 47, I declare an interest as an investor using the EIS benefit. I hope that that does not become a tax problem and the Revenue starts to chase me on it. I am fairly confident at this stage that I am on the right side. I agree that the EIS is exceptionally useful and many small businesses know about it. We have somewhat cheekily tried to extend the EIS relief beyond individual investors to institutional investors. We put that as a role for the Small Business Commissioner in order to probe the Government about whether the commissioner could also play a useful role in how we grow small businesses, being able to make observations about how some of the government schemes that currently exist could be used further.

Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill

Debate between Lord Cope of Berkeley and Lord Mendelsohn

Monday 12th January 2015 Grand Committee

[Lord Cope of Berkeley (Con)]

My Lords, I want to reinforce some of what my noble friend the Minister has just said with regard to these definitions and whether they should include any financial criteria as well as the headcount. It is very important that they do, and I was disappointed to see that this amendment left out the financial provisions. If the Committee looked through the list of businesses that we were looking at the other day, while considering the amendment of my noble friend Lord Flight, your Lordships would see that some very large businesses with huge turnovers—or, for that matter, huge balance sheet totals—nevertheless have very few people working for them. They have very few employees and are not small businesses by any normal criteria. It is important to include financial criteria within these definitions.

[Lord Mendelsohn]

I thank the Minister for her reply. The noble Lord, Lord Cope, made an important point about the size of businesses and the financial criteria when evaluating the different areas to look at. One has to take note of the huge imbalance that there is in the volume of businesses with very small numbers of employees and characteristics. You could distort that by the introduction of certain financial measures but, as I said, it is not that we believe that there is an absence of financial figures. If you are looking at where you can target policy, that is so but we want to illustrate a point within this—that there is a common interest in the promotion of small businesses and in trying to create measures to do that.

Considering the deregulatory issues about burdens and other sorts of things is one side of it—my noble friend Lord Stevenson outlined some of our concerns in relation to them—but this Bill is not just about removing burdens of regulation. It has to be about being able to promote small businesses, and people who are engaged in the activity of developing them, by easing their burdens and making their commercial activities much stronger and more successful. In that context, when we talk about regulatory burdens, every single poll of small businesses here, in keeping with those in other places, will demonstrate strongly that those issues are dwarfed in significance for them by the problems of payments—access to credit, cash flow and other sorts of things.

Within that context, we are also looking at the challenges which small businesses have in relation to competing in markets dominated by larger companies. On the issues that they have about access to markets, turnover thresholds and employment and other sorts of things, we are keen to think about how you can use these measures to try to design policy, support and other sorts of levers for the future. With a sense that the Minister will reflect carefully on that side of the coin, I beg leave to withdraw our amendment.