Enterprise Bill [HL]

Lord Cope of Berkeley Excerpts

Wednesday 25th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cope of Berkeley (Con)]

My Lords, I, too, feel that it is right for the Small Business Commissioner to have this focus on late payment from large companies, as I have said before in debates on this Bill. As many of us know from experience, this is a problem that has been with us for many years—in fact, for many decades—and all sorts of attempts have been made from time to time to improve the situation, some of which have had some effect. This is a further attempt, because the problem is still with us. If you broaden the initial remit of the commissioner too far—and I am not talking about the eventual remit, although maybe it will be larger in due course, which I would welcome—you will just give an impossible job to whoever gets the appointment. It will be a difficult job in any case, but it would become an impossible job.

Under the terms of Amendment 16, the commissioner would be required to establish a complete framework and fair operating environment for all businesses over a whole string of different methods and aspects. That is an enormous job to place on this new commissioner and the staff. Let them concentrate on one of the most stubborn problems we have had over many years. If they succeed in that, then we can begin to see the remit widen and used in a much bigger spread, which I think we would all like to see, in due course.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Neville-Rolfe) (Con)]

My Lords, first, I welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Burt of Solihull, to the Front Bench and commend her for her brevity and clarity. I hope the House will not mind if I take a little time to highlight some of the issues arising in this important group of amendments. I shall begin, as one must, by reiterating the importance of tackling late payment and our commitment to doing so. The measures in this Bill establish a Small Business Commissioner, delivering on and developing our manifesto commitment.

I, too, pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Wolfson for his good payment practice at Next. We should try to encourage good practice as it helps with the cultural change we are seeking. Our aim is to build on the measures taken during the previous Parliament to drive down late payment. Some of these measures are still in the pipeline, notably the new requirement on the UK’s largest companies to publish performance data on payment which will bring the sunshine of transparency to the problem.

I am extremely grateful to noble Lords for their diligent scrutiny of the Small Business Commissioner measures in Committee. After careful consideration of the arguments, we have put forward concessionary amendments, as noble Lords opposite were kind enough to acknowledge. I hope they will bear them in mind in considering what to do today.

We all know how vital the UK’s small businesses are to our economic growth. This is something we must all reflect on as we approach Small Business Saturday. In Anna Soubry, we have a Small Business Minister who champions the cause. I am a former chairman of a Scottish SME, Dobbies, and as well as understanding the practices of much bigger companies I really believe in the need for reform. On late payment, with a good strong Small Business Commissioner becoming a vital part of the support system and with the support of this House and the other place, we can make things happen. Our assault on late payment must continue.

We are committed to making Britain the very best place to start and grow a business. The Government will play their part in assisting business where it needs it most by cutting red tape and opening up markets at home and abroad to new and innovative businesses. I should say briefly that today the Chancellor confirmed that we will extend small business rates relief for another year, and 600,000 businesses will benefit. We are funding new or extended enterprise zones, including, I was delighted to see, in Carlisle, Dorset and Ipswich. We will be providing £24 million for local growth hubs to continue to join up business support on the ground in each LEP area.

The Small Business Commissioner will build the confidence and capabilities of small businesses to assert themselves in contractual disputes with larger firms and to avoid them in the first place. He or she will work to encourage a culture change in how businesses deal with each other to promote a fair operating environment. The commissioner will handle complaints by small business suppliers about payment-related issues with larger businesses. He or she will also act as a hub of user-friendly information. He or she will provide general advice and information to assist small businesses with their supply relationships, which will be sensibly integrated with other sources of business advice. My officials will involve small business users in the design phase to ensure that the commissioner’s services are easy to use and navigate.

We arrived at this policy architecture following careful consideration of the issues and the evidence, including responses to our summer consultation and further evidence including data on late payment. Our aim has been to put forward a targeted and effective response to the most pertinent issues facing small business and to focus the commissioner on late payment so that rapid progress is made. That is the point that my noble friend Lady Wheatcroft made so well.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)]

Amendment 11 would give additional power to the commissioner to recommend to the Secretary of State a fine when a large business has been subjected to repeated complaints and has refused to make changes recommended by the commissioner. We asked in Committee and I ask again: what will happen without some form of sanction for repeat offenders? We believe that this is necessary to give some power to the commissioner and provide a deterrent to those who refuse to co-operate with his work. We think that it could be set up by regulation and that it is important to give some authority to the body. I beg to move.

[Lord Cope of Berkeley]

My Lords, there are two amendments in this group. As the noble Lord has just explained, the first is about a persistent offender or repeated complaints, and it proposes a fine. The way that the fine is introduced is very unusual in comparison with most times when we introduce a fine into statute. I do not so much complain about that—it is perhaps a drafting matter—but there it is.

Amendment 15 would give very wide powers to the Secretary of State, on the advice of the commissioner, to make an enormous number of very complicated regulations—also leading, incidentally, to a fine if they are not complied with. That is the wrong thing to do, certainly at this point in the development of the Small Business Commissioner role. As we said earlier, he or she should focus on the issue of late payment, and introducing all this machinery changes the nature of what is happening. I do not support Amendment 15 in particular.

[Lord Mendelsohn]

My Lords, we support the thrust of the argument presented by the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, that it is very important to put some significant measures behind the attempt to arrest late payments. We are supportive of the Small Business Commissioner trying to do something, but we are realistic that the evidence and pattern demonstrate that it will insufficient.

I will identify one particular aspect. I am grateful that the Minister wrote to me about late payment data—a matter that we discussed in Committee. Late payments are already defined in law, and that definition has been largely in force since the introduction of the Late Payment of Commercial Debts Regulations 2013, which amended the Late Payment of Commercial Debts (Interest) Act 1998. This establishes that, where a public authority purchases goods or services, statutory interest—the determination that there is a late payment—will start to run on an outstanding payment from 30 days after the supplier’s invoice is received. For other organisations and businesses where a payment period has not been agreed, statutory interest will start to run on outstanding payments from 30 days after the supplier’s invoice is received. Where a payment period is specified in the contract, statutory interest will start to run from that date. However, if the agreed payment period is more than 60 days after the events listed, the regulations state that statutory interest will begin to run from 60 days.

The important principle is that we have already established in law that, as far as we are concerned, late payment arises, at a maximum, at 60 days in relation to private sector organisations. I say that largely because we have had a variety of data problems regarding the extent of late payments. I am extremely sceptical about the data on which the department is relying—namely, the Bacs data on late payments. The reason I am sceptical is that that body makes it absolutely clear that it considers late payment to be 30 days after the agreed payment date between two parties. Even if you have a payment date of 90 days, Bacs will only consider a period of 30 days after that as being a late payment, so it purposely excludes all those other payments which are technically defined as late payments under the existing law. That is why the Bacs figures always come out as significantly lower than those of any other survey. In fact, over the last three months, the range of late payments is identified as being between £41 billion and £61 billion. Bacs identifies the sum owed to small businesses as £26 billion. I do not think that those figures are reliable. We should deal with the problem that we have defined in law—namely, that a late payment is a late payment after 60 days.

This is an important amendment as it tries to give a sense of the extent of late payments that we have to deal with and the measures that we and noble Lords throughout the House believe are required to arrest that situation. The velocity of the increase in the incidence of this problem continues to rise without any material abatement.

It may be useful to give a real-life example to illustrate whether soft or hard measures are required. In December 2013, Debenhams was roundly condemned when the chief financial officer, Simon Herrick, sent out a so-called “Santa tax” letter to suppliers just eight days before Christmas imposing a unilateral 2.5% cut on their prices. At the time, analysts saw that as a last-minute attempt to boost falling profit margins. In January 2014, the store chain issued a profit warning, following a disastrous Christmas trading period, and the CFO resigned. He had previously come under fire in October, when Debenhams’ half-year results revealed that it had spent an astonishing sum moving its headquarters to a very opulent site in Regent’s Place, Euston. Analysts and investors said that the scale of these costs had not been flagged and that the £25 million refurbishment of the Oxford Street store was completed just in time for Christmas but had caused considerable disruption to trading.

Over the intervening period there have been complaints about the continued extension of Debenhams’ payment terms. It was a real concern to read that the Federation of Small Businesses rightly criticised Debenhams after it emerged that the department store chain was asking for discounts in return for making earlier payments. In fact, Debenhams insists on a reduction of nearly 2% in suppliers’ prices in exchange for making payments 30 to 60 days earlier. That gives noble Lords some idea of the extent of its current policy on payment terms. This is the second time in three years that the retailer has unilaterally proposed changes to suppliers’ payments in the run-up to Christmas.

I was very interested to hear the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, say that PR and publicity drive culture change which changes behaviour. I do not think there has been a company more in the headlines for its poor practices on changing suppliers’ prices than Debenhams but that has not changed that company’s behaviour one bit. It has done exactly the same thing again. I am a student of some great public relations practitioners. Indeed, we have such a practitioner in this House in the person of the noble Lord, Lord Bell. He has always made the great point that good PR is always founded on substance. That has a strong part to play in the issue we are discussing. Clear adherence to regulation will determine whether or not change will happen. It will not be determined by whether or not companies can withstand a bit of poor publicity. The noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, referred to the glare of warm publicity surrounding Lidl’s decision to pay its staff the living wage and said that that demonstrates that all is well. I would be interested to hear whether she knows the payment date terms that Lidl applies. They are extremely long. In fact, Lidl has been roundly criticised for them. Clearly, one bit of glaring positive publicity does not obviate or change the culture of the company.

It is important to note that the amendment contains a variety of significant powers. In fact, it is a few amendments pushed together into one, as those who attended any of the Grand Committee sessions will know. We have done this to make the point in a number of ways that we are failing to address some of the most serious principal issues, the first being that, despite there being a clear law that allows people to charge interest, they do not do it for fear of retribution. Despite having clear rules about payment terms, people still do not adhere to them because they can get away with it by unilaterally determining a payment term. Even when companies extend payment terms to, for example, 120 days, as many do, they will not be able to charge interest for fear of retribution.

We also have a huge concern about the variety of ways in which companies add terms, unilaterally change terms and create the sorts of commercial arrangements that penalise small businesses, because they can get away with it. Be it marketing charges or warehousing costs, a variety of methods are used to reduce the amount outstanding to a smaller business. All those sorts of matters act as a massive impediment to the growth and development of small businesses. Frankly, even if it is not about growth but about justice for someone trying to run a small business and having to make sure that they do not suffer the terrible consequences of trying to borrow on credit cards—as far too many do, and they suffer enormous costs for doing so—when a large supplier fails to live up to its side of the bargain and the small business has limited options with which to address it, these are the matters that we need to address. It is the sheer size of the problem that we have to address, and there are a number of ways in which this can be done.

Our amendment suggests that the Small Business Commissioner can play a useful role, although not the only role. We also support measures in their own right to try to ensure that it is the obligation of the larger company—or indeed anyone who owes money—to pay it and not to have to be chased. In our view, it is not going to be a question of whether, in dealing with 500 cases and having a very active press officer, the Small Business Commissioner will be able to make a dent in £40 billion, £50 billion or £60 billion-worth of late payments. He or she has to be able to make sure that we build a culture whereby if you are meant to pay, you pay.