Forest Holidays: Forestry Commission Stake

Debate between Lord Clark of Windermere and Lord De Mauley

Tuesday 17th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, the Forestry Commission has to approve of any new sites for this activity, such approval not to be unreasonably withheld, which is a reasonably common requirement. In practice, Forest Holidays is unlikely to be able to progress a site if it does not have the full support of the Forestry Commission. Forest Holidays also has its own site selection criteria, which exclude any site where there are significant environmental constraints.

I spoke to the chairman of the Forestry Commission today, and he confirmed that only a limited number of sites are available within the public forest estate.

[Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab)]

I declare an interest as the chair of the Forestry Commission from 2001 to 2009. As the House may know, there have been two joint ventures with the Forestry Commission and Forest Holidays, one on my watch in 2006 and a later one in 2012. Will the Minister confirm that, on the first occasion, it followed full parliamentary procedure, had the approval of the Treasury and went out to full competitive tendering?

As regards the second venture, will the Minister assure the House that if the private sector investor decided to sell its share, the Forestry Commission would not be forced to sell the commensurate share at the same time?

[Lord De Mauley]

I can confirm most of what the noble Lord said. The terms under which the current joint venture operates are very much the same as for the original joint venture. If the controlling interest is sold, the Forestry Commission may be required to sell its interest in the company by the buyer, including the Forestry Commission’s stake in the business. The sale would not change the controls set out in the framework agreement and the site leases.

Soil Quality

Debate between Lord Clark of Windermere and Lord De Mauley

Wednesday 25th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

I very strongly agree with the noble Countess. She might be comforted to know that we are investing £10 million through NERC and BBSRC programmes specifically to investigate soil security, with a strong focus on soil biology, which she referred to. We are also undertaking research on soil management approaches to stimulate soil organisms.

[Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Clark of Windermere]

I thank the noble Baroness. Does the Minister accept that tree planting plays a critical role in stopping the erosion of soil? As this problem gets more and more acute, what plans do the Government have to engage with the Forestry Commission to allow it to get more in touch with farmers to point out the advantages of tree planting and the disadvantages of removing hedges?

[Lord De Mauley]

Yes, I strongly agree with the noble Lord. He will be pleased to know that over the past five years not only have we planted 1 million trees, principally in urban areas, through the Big Tree Plant, we have also planted 10 million trees, funded through Pillar 2 of the CAP. We think it is extremely important and I agree with him very strongly on that.

Japanese Knotweed

Debate between Lord Clark of Windermere and Lord De Mauley

Wednesday 9th April 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

I should say to my noble friend that Aphalara itadori is not planned to eradicate knotweed but is part of a programme on how to manage it. We have got to a stage where it is here—and we should acknowledge that fact—but we should manage it. There are other tools that can be used in this matter. In fact, when my noble friend Lady Sharples asked the same Question last year, she referred to the use of an herbicide which can be effective. My noble friend Lord Greaves referred to more pressure on landlords. It would be disproportionate, and possibly unfair, to impose very strong conditions on landowners because, apart from anything else, this weed can arrive on their land through no fault of their own. However, farmers receiving the single farm payment are required to take reasonable steps to prevent its spread.

[Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab)]

The Minister is absolutely right to try to pursue this pernicious weed as much as possible but there is a belief that, in a restricted sense, persistent application of the herbicide to which he referred will actually be quite effective in killing it, in a limited state. Is there any way of doing some emergency research on those one or two herbicides and to try to publicise that? It would remove a lot of difficulties for many people who are trying to sell houses and clean up their land.

[Lord De Mauley]

It is a difficult one but the answer to that question is that the herbicide which the noble Lord and I are talking about is effective if used persistently, as he says, so I do not think that further research is needed. The question is the extent to which we want to spray around quite powerful pesticides. That is why I suggest to your Lordships that things such as biocontrol are also very valuable.

Flooding: Agricultural Areas

Debate between Lord Clark of Windermere and Lord De Mauley

Monday 3rd March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

I am grateful to the right reverend Prelate for coming to see me the other day to talk about these things. There is currently no evidence that flood events such as those experienced in 2007, 2009 or 2012—or, so far, in recent events—represent a threat to food security in the United Kingdom. According to the UK food security assessment, the UK enjoys a high level of food security as a developed, stable economy. I think it is more likely that disruption to transport links could impact access to food supplies, but we are watching this carefully.

[Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab)]

My Lords, can the Minister advise the House whether any money is available from the European Union to offset these costs on the British Government? If so, have the Government drawn down any of that money?

[Lord De Mauley]

I think that the noble Lord might be referring to the EU solidarity fund, which is designed to support recovery if a country is in an area that has been affected by a major natural disaster. The UK applied to the fund once before in 2007 when flooding affected over 48,000 households and 7,000 businesses. The threshold for a national disaster is still €3 billion, in 2002 prices. Recent events, although locally severe and certainly very traumatic for local residents, cannot be compared in terms of impacts or categorised as a major natural disaster. However, we will keep the matter under review.

Independent Panel on Forestry Report

Debate between Lord Clark of Windermere and Lord De Mauley

Tuesday 17th December 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Clark of Windermere]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress they have made in implementing the recommendations of the report of the Independent Panel on Forestry.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley) (Con)]

My Lords, good progress has been made in implementing the commitments set out in January in the Government’s forestry and woodlands policy statement. An update report published in July highlighted progress in establishing a new body to manage the public forest estate, in maintaining forestry expertise in government, in supporting the forestry sector to improve its economic performance and in giving greater priority to plant health. A further update report will be published in the new year. I declare an interest as a woodland owner.

[Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his answer. Is he aware that there are suggestions that the new forestry body will be forced to sell some of its land almost from its inception? Will he assure the House that that is not the case, and that the Government’s new forestry body will be provided with sufficient finance so that it is not forced into land sales within its first 12 months of existence?

[Lord De Mauley]

Yes, my Lords. Although the new body will be able to buy and sell land in its role as a land manager, there are no plans for it to sell any part of the estate to raise revenue to support itself.

Bovine Tuberculosis

Debate between Lord Clark of Windermere and Lord De Mauley

Tuesday 26th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

I am most grateful to my noble friend because he enables me to say, perhaps more categorically than I said to start with, that research indicates that there is no link between TB susceptibility and milk production traits.

[Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab)]

Will the Minister accept my noble friend’s point that in many parts of the country there are plenty of badgers but no TB, and that one of the dangers is not the badgers bringing in TB to the cattle but cattle imported from other parts of the country being transferred into these areas?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, that is something on which we can all agree. Indeed, our strategy is based on TB being particularly rife in the south and west and moving northwards and eastwards, but in the part of the world that the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, comes from it is not yet endemic in the badger population. What we find in the high-incidence areas is that it forms a reservoir in that element of wildlife, unfortunately badgers. As I say, our strategy is built on trying to slow the spread across the country.

Badgers

Debate between Lord Clark of Windermere and Lord De Mauley

Wednesday 9th October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

My noble friend asks a specific question and I will, if I may, take it away to consider the point about deer in parks. As regards the suggestion that deer may be a reservoir of TB in wildlife as well, we have established that badgers are a particularly good—if I may use that word—host for TB. They are the part of wildlife on which we really have to focus.

[Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that there is general scientific agreement that the badgers that are left after a cull have a greater propensity to carry over and pass on TB to cattle and that it is a fine balance between the numbers killed and those that survive? Is he aware that there is deep concern that the figures we are provided with are not robust and that the result may be an increase in TB, not a decrease?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, with the greatest of respect, I do not think that the noble Lord’s proposition is correct. The randomised badger-culling trials showed something quite different, which was that above a certain percentage of badgers culled—indeed, the first-year trials in the randomised badger culls were in the 30s of per cent—there was nevertheless a significant effect on the incidence of TB in cattle.

Forestry: Independent Panel Report

Debate between Lord Clark of Windermere and Lord De Mauley

Wednesday 17th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, the noble Lord has reminded me that I should have declared an interest as a woodland owner. He essentially asks what we are doing to make the woodland industry more creative. There is a new concept called Grown in Britain, which is creating a new and stronger market pull for the array of products derived from our woodlands and forests. We are developing private sector funding that supports the planting and management of woodlands and forests through funding from corporates, as part of their corporate social responsibility, and we are connecting together and harnessing the positive energy and feelings towards our woodlands and forests that many in our society share to create a strong wood culture.

[Lord Clark of Windermere]

My Lords, in the Government’s response, the Secretary of State wrote on the subject of forest acquisition:

“We will focus particularly on woods close to our towns and cities where the greatest number of people can enjoy them”.

Can the Minister advise us whether there has been any success in this? If not, will he consult with the Forestry Commission England to help it bring forward some of its plans to achieve that laudable objective?

[Lord De Mauley]

I agree with the noble Lord that that is a laudable objective. It is early days, but we are making progress on those things. If I may, I will take the noble Lord’s suggestion back to the department.

Horsemeat and Food Fraud

Debate between Lord Clark of Windermere and Lord De Mauley

Monday 11th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Clark of Windermere]

My Lords, there are clearly various aspects to this problem—the criminality, misleading of the general public and the issue of food safety. The Minister has given us an assurance today that there is no risk to food safety. May I press him on this issue and ask him a question? I understand that the science of veterinary medicine as it might pass on to food consumption for humans is based on minimum residue levels, but there are a number of veterinary medicines that do not subject themselves to that classification, such as phenylbutazone, which he mentioned, and many others. These medicines pose a risk to human health. We have a very elaborate and rigorous system of testing for those medicines, but this problem has emanated, as I understand it, not primarily from the United Kingdom but from other parts of Europe. Do other European countries test horsemeat with the same rigour for veterinary medicines—because that is where the danger is—as we do?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I am confident that they do.

Forestry

Debate between Lord Clark of Windermere and Lord De Mauley

Tuesday 5th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

Yes, my Lords, we are committed to keeping the public forest in public hands, to maintaining and improving public access to our woodlands, and to increasing woodland cover very substantially over the next 50 years. Everyone has a role to play in managing our woodlands better, as well as in increasing woodland cover. Noble Lords will know that all Governments zealously guard the contents of the Queen’s Speech and these are not divulged in advance. What I will say is that the Government fully intend to do this, and to do it expeditiously.

[Lord Clark of Windermere]

My Lords, I, too, join the noble Lord in thanking the Government for their U-turn on forestry, which is very welcome. But it is incumbent upon us now to make sure that the new architecture is right and fit for purpose. I have my doubts as to whether we will see legislation in this Parliament. Therefore, the Forestry Commission is going to have to ensure that the forest estate is kept in a suitable state for it to be handed over to the new body. Bearing in mind the massive cuts that the Forestry Commission has had of late, will the Minister give me an assurance that there will be no further redundancies and cuts in the budget of the Forestry Commission?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, what I will do is confirm that we will support the Forestry Commission to the level required to secure the long-term success of it and its successor. This long-term success includes enabling it to become more financially sustainable through the increased generation of trading income. We have put back £3.5 million into the Forestry Commission’s budget next year specifically to make up for the income that would have come from sales of woodland. We have allocated £2 million to the Forestry Commission to recognise additional pressures arising from Chalara and the importance of implementing the commitments in the IPF response. We will continue to provide funding to ensure that the public can access their public forests and woodland over the remainder of the current spending review period.

Crime: Wildlife Crime

Debate between Lord Clark of Windermere and Lord De Mauley

Thursday 31st January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, first, I am aware that John Scanlon recognises the increasing involvement of organised crime in illegal wildlife trade. He has welcomed the UN Security Council’s call for an investigation into the alleged involvement of the Lord’s Resistance Army in the poaching of African elephants and the smuggling of ivory. Police and crime commissioners will hold their chief constables to account for the totality of their policing, which includes the chief constable working in collaboration with other police forces and agencies to address national issues that impact on their communities. As I have said, we believe that there is often a link between organised wildlife crime and other organised crimes, such as drugs and arms trafficking. We therefore expect the police to take wildlife crime seriously where it is a priority for their communities; co-operation with the NWCU will be key to this.

[Lord Clark of Windermere]

My Lords, while I commend the Government for their efforts in tackling wildlife crime in this country, is the Minister satisfied with the seriousness with which magistrates’ courts in certain parts of the country take this? Does he appreciate that there is a great deal of public anguish when people who are caught and proved guilty of killing golden eagles or hen harriers get off virtually scot free?

[Lord De Mauley]

The noble Lord makes a good point. Enforcement is important. The magistrates have taken account of that and issued a document a while ago that specifically addresses that.

Schmallenberg Virus

Debate between Lord Clark of Windermere and Lord De Mauley

Thursday 1st November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

I agree with my noble friend. Generally speaking, midges are very widespread across the country and I think that the application of a spray would have minimal impact.

[Lord Clark of Windermere]

My Lords, in view of the emergence of a worrying number of animal and plant diseases, which may or may not be connected with the nuances of climate change, will the Minister give us an assurance that none of the drastic cuts being made by the Government in their own research facilities will hinder the evolution of vaccines to counter things such as bovine TB, the Schmallenberg virus and Ash dieback?

[Lord De Mauley]

If I may, I shall restrict my response to the Schmallenberg virus for these purposes. I assure noble Lords that the necessary funding has been made available particularly to carry out the testing which is so critical in this case.

Bovine Tuberculosis

Debate between Lord Clark of Windermere and Lord De Mauley

Tuesday 23rd October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, the point about mice, rats and indeed deer is that there is no restriction on culling them.

[Lord Clark of Windermere]

My Lords, I agree entirely with the Minister, as indeed would most people in the country, when he says that this is the most pressing animal health issue facing the country. In the light of that, I welcome the announcement today because I think that it exposes how shambolic the Government’s proposals have been in trying to tackle this real problem. As scientists said last week, the policy was little more than a costly diversion and we will end up with more cases of TB in four or nine years’ time than we have at the moment. The four-year pilots have now, with the stroke of a pen today, become five-year pilots. I believe that we ought to follow the recommendations of the European Union representatives and, although it will not be easy, continue to seek political consensus so that we can move on to vaccination and increase the amount of money that we are spending on research in this field, especially in the form of cattle vaccination.

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, the area in which I disagree with the noble Lord is clearly that of pursuing the cull, which I have said we are planning to do. The area in which I agree with him is that of vaccination, which is another tool in the box that we must find, and I assure noble Lords that we are continuing to work on that.

Forestry Commission

Debate between Lord Clark of Windermere and Lord De Mauley

Thursday 3rd March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Clark of Windermere]

My Lords, I spent a great deal of my political life being involved in forestry, and I made my maiden speech in the other place 41 years ago on the subject. I introduced the Private Member’s Bill that required the Forestry Commission to move from simply producing timber to multipurpose forestry, and I served for eight years as chair of the Forestry Commission. Given that, I was not exactly happy with the Government’s proposals, which I regarded as ill judged, to sell off the Forestry Commission estate. However, I was thrilled and amazed by the response of the British people. I did not expect them to share the appreciation of trees and woodland as fully as I did. The fact that over half a million individuals have signed a petition against the Government’s proposal—the petition is still there; lapsed, but growing each day—was symptomatic of the feeling of the British people. I was quite frankly staggered that I ended up addressing meetings of thousands of people, deep in our forests, who were objecting to the Government’s proposals.

However, that is in the past. The Government, thankfully, saw the light, and they retreated. We are all grateful for that retreat, because it gives us an opportunity now, in a calmer atmosphere, to debate the long-term future of a long-term business. As the House knows, we are talking about an industry that thinks in terms of decades, as a minimum, and occasionally in terms of centuries. It is right to take stock and see where we are.

Over a number of years, we in Britain have had a healthy partnership between the public sector and the private sector in forestry. Twenty per cent is owned by the state and the remainder by the private sector. I think that this is about the right balance, and both sectors receive support from the public finances. This balance is right because the state can do some things more easily than the private sector can. On access, for example, I remind noble Lords that the Forestry Commission estate is the largest single provider of countryside access, with 40 million day visitors per year. I remind the House that under the CROW Act almost all the freehold land is legally open for access on foot, and that on almost all the land there is de facto access on cycles for mountain biking and general recreation. Access is given wherever possible for horses as well. This is much easier to provide where the land is being supported by the general public through taxation than it might be for a private owner. I concede that straightaway, and it is one of my arguments for why we need to retain a sizeable public sector ownership of our forestry.

The issue is not only access. In terms of biodiversity, 26 per cent of the forestry estate is designated as SSSI; and of those sites, 98 per cent are designated as either favourable or at an advanced stage of recovery. Forty-five per cent of the estate is within national parks or areas of outstanding natural beauty. There are constraints on the production of timber, yet the Forestry Commission estate still produces 60 per cent of all the timber produced from woods and forests in this country. In addition to that, there is the storage of CO₂ as well.

As for timber supply, although I have long argued for multi purpose forestry, it is also still very important to produce timber. What has not come out in debate on the Government’s proposal to sell off the Forestry Commission is how opposed most of the big users of timber were to it. Modern timber-using industry needs a high level of capital investment and, usually, a great deal of labour. It is imperative that those users of timber are guaranteed a supply 365 days a year, every year. The private sector, quite understandably, will not give those guarantees of supply. When timber prices fall—and it is a highly volatile market—the private sector simply withdraws timber from the market. That makes sense to the private timber owner but not to the timber user in a highly capital-intensive, labour-intensive industry.

I accept that one cannot stand still. As chair of the commission, I was for ever pushing the commission to see if we could find better ways of meeting more public benefits and of doing so in a better way. That was an obligation that I felt we had to the taxpayer and to our customers as wood users. I was pleased, for example, to persuade Parliament to agree to a regulatory reform order that allowed the Forestry Commission, as a government department, to do all sorts of adventurous initiatives. We were allowed to form joint ventures with the private sector, and we have done so with effect. There is much more opportunity for us to continue with that as we progress. While I am open about the way in which we go forward and how we manage and utilise our assets in the state sector, I hope that the Government will be as open as they look ahead with their proposals.

We were all pleased—certainly on this side of the House, along with the overwhelming majority of the British people, including 82 per cent of the Government’s own supporters—that the Secretary of State announced on 17 February that they were dropping their wilder proposals to sell off 85 per cent of the Forestry Commission estate. That was a vast amount, but there still remains the question of the 15 per cent. I hope that the Minister can give us some reassurance about that 15 per cent today. Is it still the Government’s firm intention, after they receive the report from the committee of experts, to sell off that 15 per cent? Before the Government throw back at me the fact that we did that I should say, yes, we did. It makes sense to reshape your estate. But we sold about 2 per cent of the forest estate, a net sale, over 13 years. The Government are proposing to sell 15 per cent over four years. The effect will be dramatic in many parts of the country and it is clearly not what the British people wish.

I say this to the Minister. The Government may feel that the protests and the protesters have gone away, but they have not—they are still there. The forests campaign network is having regular meetings because it wants to hold the Government to account on this issue, and it does not want the sale of the forestry estate asset.

I shall conclude my remarks by asking the Minister a number of straightforward questions. The Government intend to set up the panel of experts, which we appreciate will be widely drawn. Will he give us an assurance that it will meet in public, that its records will be public and that its members will be drawn from throughout the regions of the country?

On an organisational matter, the Forestry Commission is currently being pressurised by Defra to reorganise its administrative structure. This would encompass huge areas, stretching from the north-east of England right through to the east coast. I firmly believed that the way forward for the Forestry Commission was to move to regional and local bases. I thought that the Government shared that idea, with the big society. Will the Minister look at this and suggest to Defra that it work with the Forestry Commission so that the reorganisation is put on hold until we have the report?

Defra has also put proposals to the Forestry Commission that it should come up with a new vision. I have seen a copy of that vision and, frankly, it is disturbing. It mentions all sorts of proposals for the commission that I agree with, but at no stage does it mention any role for the Forestry Commission estate. Will the Minister have a word with his Defra officials on that issue?

This is a very short and rushed debate, in time allocated to the Opposition. There is sufficient interest in this topic within this House, where there is a great deal of knowledge, and I ask the Government to give us some time in government time so that the House can debate this issue and play its part in the forestry debate.

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I respectfully remind noble Lords that Back-Bench contributions in this debate are limited to two minutes and that those two minutes are already up when it says two minutes on the clock. If any noble Lord exceeds that, he risks restricting my noble friend’s ability to respond to your Lordships.