Deregulation Bill

Lord Christopher Excerpts

Tuesday 28th October 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Borwick (Con)]

My Lords, we know that the Sunday Trading Act 1994 means that any shop with more than 3,000 square feet can be opened for only a restricted number of hours on a Sunday. Smaller shops do not have restricted hours. This was a liberalisation although it was actually a tightening of the rules for garden centres, which now suffer because their products are necessarily spread over larger areas. What makes a garden centre unique is its inability to pile it high, unlike other retailers. Whereas a shop with a small floor space can ensure that it sells as much product as possible on Sunday by bulk stacking, that is not true of a garden centre. The products themselves need space to have light, to grow and to look attractive to potential customers. Stacking bay trees up like baked beans, carnations like cornflakes and tulips like tinned tuna would not be an appealing way to display them.

Most garden centres are family-owned businesses, many of which have been owned by several generations of the same family. There are also relatively few big chains of garden centres, with the biggest being only 140 out of the total of 2,400 or so outlets in the UK. The second biggest has 34 stores. They really are small businesses, which existing Sunday trading laws are trying to protect, so we should be ensuring that garden centres, with unnatural demands on their floor space and a tendency to remain small, family-run businesses, are allowed the same opportunities to trade on Sundays as a small retailer in another sector.

I would argue that this is also about getting people out of their houses and away from their computer screens on a Sunday. We are told that we should keep Sunday special and I agree. But we should not keep Sunday special by restricting freedom on a Sunday. Visits to garden centres should be encouraged alongside visits to church as wonderful things to do on a Sunday—lots of time outdoors with children. who are too often obsessed with their iPads. becoming interested in nature.

I know that there are concerns, not least from the shop workers’ union, USDAW, that an amendment seeking to exempt garden centres from Sunday trading laws would create a loophole. Its contention is that the lines would become blurred between what is and what is not a garden centre. What one may have traditionally thought was a garden centre may now sell a wider range of products, so large DIY companies may use a garden centre exemption as a way to open for longer on Sundays. But I am not concerned. According to a survey of its members by the Horticultural Trades Association, around 95% of garden centres have more than 20% of their trading area made up of either outdoor or covered outdoor areas.

Another consistent feature of garden centres is that the roofs of their retail buildings are transparent or translucent—usually glass. That, of course, is to allow for the effective care of live plants, which require light. It would be a huge imposition for other businesses to try to replicate those features to open for a little longer on a Sunday. Indeed, the HTA offered its own definition of what should qualify. It recommends:

“Any retailer which has at least 20% of its total retail footprint made up of outdoor or covered outdoor space, excluding car parking bays, delivery bays or buildings used solely for commercial plant production, or any retailer whose roof’s surface area is made up of at least 20% glass or similarly translucent material to enable the effective care and display of live plants”.

That seems an eminently reasonable definition. I am sure that the Minister could do even better. Again, the cost, time and burden of converting a DIY shop to fit these requirements, all for a few hours’ more trading on a Sunday, would probably not be worth it.

All this goes to show the absurdity of the Sunday trading laws more generally. Nowadays, many workers can go ahead and ply their trade on a Sunday to meet the demand of the customers whom they serve. If cab drivers, barmen and call centre workers want to make some extra cash on a Sunday, there are very few barriers in their way. Why should those people who work in shops above a certain square footage lose out?

Consumers overwhelmingly back change. A ComRes poll in March 2014 found that two-thirds of respondents backed a permanent extension of Sunday trading hours. At present, big supermarket chains create smaller-format stores simply to circumvent the law. The result is higher prices for the consumer, as a study by campaign group Open Sundays shows. The survey measured the difference in price between a basket of goods sold in a store of more than 3,000 square feet and one sold in a convenience store, which is many people’s only option on a Sunday afternoon. Prices were anywhere between 7% and 11% higher than in the larger stores. Is that why the Association of Convenience Stores argues against this amendment?

Throughout the world, the consumer is moving from high street shops to the internet. This is happening at the same time as a move from small shops to large megastores outside town. Charity shops and empty stores now dominate our high streets. If I was a shop worker, I would want my union to combat this trend, because otherwise I would eventually become redundant while our high streets die. Yet USDAW continues to campaign against Sunday trading. Indeed, its campaign could be designed to encourage buyers to use Amazon rather than a shop. The Royal Mail has announced that it is starting to deliver parcels on a Sunday, but why should a buyer not be able to get the same goods personally on a Sunday? Perhaps USDAW should take a leaf out of the postmen’s book.

We have to recognise that people have a right to choose where they shop and when, and bring the law up to date with the digital age. I beg to move.

[Lord Christopher (Lab)]

My Lords, my only interest in garden centres is as a customer; I have no other concern. I oppose the amendment. To start to erode the Sunday Trading Act in this way would be a mistake. Perhaps I may quote the right honourable Vince Cable from the time when we were embarking on the Olympics. He said:

“Any move towards the abolition of the UK’s Sunday trading laws would require new legislation, a full consultation and extensive parliamentary scrutiny”.—[Official Report, Commons, 30/4/2012; col. 1293.]

I concede that it is not on all fours, but it is perfectly clear what the right honourable Member meant. The mover of the amendment suggested that there is perhaps much that is wrong with the Sunday trading laws. Okay, let us address that, but we should not make a one-off attempt on this issue.

My second concern—I shall be rather briefer than the noble Lord—is that in moving his amendment, the noble Lord gave definitions, but there is no definition in the new clause that he is proposing. He concentrated substantially on the very small garden centres—which, God willing, will continue—but I know of very few garden centres today, privately owned or company owned, that do not sell a vast range of other commodities, everything from boots and shoes to clothing. Indeed, I have been in some places where they sell stoves and furniture. It would be a great mistake if your Lordships included this amendment in the Bill. It should be returned to, if the noble Lord wishes, as part of a much broader concern, and, in particular, there should be public consultation. The members of USDAW have as much right to say what they would wish as other people who are not intimately involved.

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, I have not participated in any of the stages of the Bill until now. Nevertheless, with your Lordships’ leave, I want to support the amendment proposed by my noble friend Lord Borwick.

I agree with him that Sunday trading restrictions no longer protect small shops to any material extent. Even if large stores were open for longer hours, it would not have a material effect on the prosperity of many small shops. There will always be people who prefer the ease, the intimacy, the convenience and the speed of shopping at the corner shop, even if the prices are a touch higher.

I respect the opinion of those who think differently, such as the noble Lord, Lord Christopher, but this amendment does not seek to remove or alter the current Sunday trading restrictions other than in respect of garden centres. As my noble friend points out, garden centres are completely different. Of course, a proper definition of a garden centre needs to be formulated. However, my experience of shopping at or, rather, visiting a garden centre is that it is good for mind and body. One often walks a considerable distance from the car park to the centre, providing a good opportunity for much needed exercise. A visit to a garden centre can be rewarding and educational. Furthermore, having purchased equipment or plants in the centre, many people hasten home to work in their garden, which, again, is a very healthy and beneficial activity to engage in on a Sunday. I cannot think of any good reason why garden centres, properly defined, should not be exempt from the Sunday trading restrictions. I strongly support the amendment in the name of my noble friend.

Pesticides: Bees

Lord Christopher Excerpts

Wednesday 13th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, the whole point of this debate is that it is quite finely balanced. That is why we are doing extra fieldwork. As to whether there is an effect on the honey harvest, it is difficult to say because we do not have categoric evidence that there is an unacceptable level of harm to bees.

[Lord Christopher]

My Lords, if I may answer the previous question, this is not about the availability of honey; it is about pollinators. If these chemicals are damaging bees, they are damaging other pollinators at the same time. Is the noble Lord aware of the five principal problems that appear to be arising from the use of these chemicals: fatally late swarming activity, large numbers of virgin queens not returning to the colony after mating, failure of mated queens to continue to lay fertilised eggs, a high proportion of queens producing only unfertilised “male” eggs, and abnormal supersedure?

[Lord De Mauley]

First, I categorically agree with the noble Lord that we need to talk about all pollinators. Bees are an important pollinator, but there are several other important ones. As regards his other question, those are assertions that have come out of eminently acceptable laboratory trials. Our proposal is that what is needed, and what is lacking, is evidence of what actually happens in the field.

Bovine Tuberculosis

Lord Christopher Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, my noble friend will know that a great number of professionals, scientists and experts are already involved in this process. There is also, indeed, an independent panel which will monitor the results of the cull, and we are extremely grateful for all the advice that we get.

[Lord Christopher]

My Lords, there have been probably inescapable pressures on farmers to manage cattle as they do. Will the Government also look, among the options, at any evidence suggesting that the resistance of our present herds has been lowered not least as a result of inbreeding? For example, how many bulls are responsible today for our white cattle herds of Holsteins and Friesians?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I have heard no evidence that inbreeding contributes to the incidence of TB.