LGBT Veterans: Financial Redress

Debate between Lord Cashman and Earl of Minto

Thursday 21st March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cashman]

To ask His Majesty’s Government when they expect to have implemented Lord Etherton’s recommendations on financial redress in the LGBT veterans independent review.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, defence has accepted the recommendation of a financial award, as proposed by the notable review from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, and is working with experts across government to establish an appropriate scheme, acknowledging that the process is intricate. Defence is committed to maintaining the momentum of the review and honouring all commitments made in the Government’s response, published in December 2023. Work continues to deliver the financial scheme by the end of 2024, and I commit to updating the House on the design of the scheme before the Summer Recess.

[Lord Cashman (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that response. This country’s treatment of LGBT armed services personnel has indeed been shameful, and the longer it takes to implement the financial elements of the report from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, the worse it gets. The Government have had the report for a long time. They accepted it in July, but we still have no financial redress for these veterans, whose careers were ruined, whose employment prospects were damaged and whose service pensions and benefits were denied. Many are now in their senior years and living in hardship. Therefore, I ask the Government at the very least to commit to an operational date for the financial redress scheme and, if they cannot do that, to update the House, as the Minister has said, at least within three months of this Question.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I certainly commit to updating the House on that latter point. I think all sides are vigorously agreed on this important issue: the treatment of LGBT serving personnel between 1967 and 2000 was wholly, wholly unacceptable. There is just no question about that. But the situation today is very different, and we are trying to address the wrongs of the past as rapidly and practically as we can. We are working across government to deliver all 49 recommendations as effectively, practically and expeditiously as possible.

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[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, when it comes down to it, it must be on a case-by-case basis, because a lot of the information that we have available to check and re-check exactly who has been so badly dealt with is either missing or not particularly accurate. I say again that anybody who has any interest in this should apply on the “LGBT veterans: support and next steps” page on GOV.UK. So far, we have only had just over 400 applications, which is less than we thought. We really want to make certain that this is absolutely comprehensive and that everybody gets paid—and all the other restorative measures, which are just as important, are taken—as quickly and practically as possible.

[Lord Cashman (Lab)]

My Lords, it is commendable that 26 recommendations have been adopted, but does the Minister agree that, without the financial element, it could be seen as window dressing? Difficult though it is, the Canadian Government turned around a much larger scheme with a much larger cohort within four months of receiving their report. I am mystified as to why the MoD cannot do the same.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the Canadian example is apposite but very different. The Canadian Government took a very clear administrative approach, which addressed a specific number of people, where they already had the information. We are not in that position, and it is important that we catch everybody who is likely to be affected, to make certain that justice and the right thing are done.

LGBT Veterans Independent Review

Debate between Lord Cashman and Earl of Minto

Tuesday 19th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cashman (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the reply from the Minister. I reflect that I have been working on this issue for 32 years, since I first gave evidence to the Select Committee in 1991, and working more recently, over the last seven years, with my noble friend Lord Lexden. It is clear that we need a future debate on implementation and I have a couple of questions that I will canter through.

It is an excellent report by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, who it is good to see is in his place. It should be recorded that it was conditional on the report that an award cap be recommended. I am pleased to hear, and I hope that the Minister will again guarantee, that the cap can, if the Government so decide, be increased and that the report is in no way a veto on any increase.

Recommendation 26 deals with the amending of relevant records of those who were subjected to administrative discharge. The Government have adopted the approach suggested. However, there is a problem. The Government’s guidance states that this process will be available to veterans who were administratively discharged during the ban, but it is highly likely that applications will be received prior to 1967. Does the Minister agree that it is important that these people are not excluded from the scope of this measure of redress? Indeed, the draft legislation set out in Annexe 10 of the excellent report by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, offers a legislative way forward. Finally, therefore, can the Government pledge that LGBT people discharged from the Armed Forces before 1967 solely on the grounds of sexual orientation and gender identity will have their records amended if they meet the criteria?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his important contribution. On the question of a cap, as I said, until we know the full picture, it is difficult to say whether the cap will be sufficient, but there has to be a level of understanding that, if it is necessary, there must be flexibility within it. On the question of recommendation 26, I think it best if I write to the noble Lord on the detail. Thirdly, on the pre-1967 discharges, there was no difference between the military law and the civil law at that point, so I am not absolutely certain where we stand on that. My suspicion is that it was the law of the nation at that time and that there is not much to go on, but I may well be wrong.

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[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that very valuable contribution, and I agree that rather a long time has elapsed between the Commons Statement and me standing here. I will undertake to talk to the Whips about getting a full debate. If we are going to have one in the Commons, then we should certainly have one here.

On pensions, I did not mean to be less than fully committed to ensuring that we do all we can to make sure that pension rights are protected and that pensions accrued are properly taken care of under the law. The point I was trying to make is that one can accrue only one pension at time, and if individuals have accrued further pensions after leaving Her Majesty’s Forces—as they then were—one needs to take that into account.

On the use of the word “intent”, I think it is more to do with interpretation than intent, in that, while the recommendations from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, are incredibly thorough and very well thought through, one or two individual practical things may need to be got absolutely right. All the recommendations are accepted and, as I think I said earlier, more than half have been implemented, including all 14 of the restorative measures.

On the final point from my noble friend, the MoD will definitely promote with vigour and at every opportunity—and it is the third or fourth time I have mentioned it—the “LGBT veterans: support and next steps” front door to the website, where one can read through in great detail the breadth of opportunity to make valid points. That is completely accepted, and the point about pardons is equally well made.

[Lord Cashman (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister questioned why I asked that the process be widened to those discharged before 1967. To clarify, as the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, intimated, we widened and extended the pardons and disregards before 1967 and then widened this to include the armed services. Therefore, legislatively, we have a way to consider those discharged before 1967.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I will certainly take that away and look at it properly.