Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Lord Carlile of Berriew and Lord Harper

Committee stage
Friday 27th February 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harper (Con)]

I think that is right and that that is a concern. The noble Baroness, Lady Fox, set it out very well. There are two approaches in this group of amendments to deal with that issue, and I want to explain why I have come down on one side rather than the other. There is the approach that my noble and learned friend Lord Garnier set out, which is to take it away from the Prime Minister and make it an appointment by His Majesty the King on advice from the Lord Chancellor. The alternative approach, set out in the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Beith, is a better one, which is to subject the person concerned to a pre-appointment hearing of a Select Committee.

That is a better approach because it is more transparent. As the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, set out, it is actually quite a tough process whereby the candidates can be grilled about their views and their qualifications, how they intend to use the role and whether they intend to use it to advance the law in any way. They can be questioned on that. There is also a precedent, as has been mentioned in the debate, I think by my noble friend Lady Coffey: appointments to the Office for Budget Responsibility not only have a pre-appointment hearing by the Treasury Committee, but the Treasury Committee has a veto and has to consent to those appointments before they can be made by the Government. That is a good model.

So rather than changing who makes the appointment, I am content for it to remain a prime ministerial appointment, with the amendment to consult Welsh Ministers, but before the Prime Minister can make such an appointment, we should ensure that there is a pre-appointment hearing by a Select Committee of the House of Commons. I am not convinced that it should necessarily be the Health and Social Care Select Committee, as there is an argument it should be the Justice Committee, given the nature of this role. That is a secondary question, but there should be a pre-appointment hearing where the person’s qualifications and motivations can be interrogated in public, and then that committee can make a decision. It would mean that the Prime Minister could proceed only with the consent of a cross-party committee—whether it should be a committee of just the House of Commons or a joint committee of both Houses may be an issue worth considering. That would achieve what my noble friend Lord Deben was arguing for: a transparent process held in public so that the public can have confidence in the person appointed, and the Prime Minister can then move forward with that appointment, knowing that it is not going to generate an enormous amount of partisan controversy, which is the last thing we want for this important appointment.

So, on balance, I am happy if the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, moves his Amendment 131. I would certainly have no problem with adding that to the Bill. I am attracted to the solution proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Beith: pre-appointment hearings, with the Select Committee having a veto on the appointment, and only when that has taken place can the Prime Minister move forward. If we do that, we will have a robust process in which we can have tremendous confidence.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

I have listened to two and a quarter hours of debate on this group. I was not really intending to speak, but I am afraid I cannot resist an “I told you so” moment. I am speaking not because I was name-checked by a number of noble Lords in various parts of the House, but because I think it important to emphasise the background for that name-checking.

First, we have been focusing on the appointment of the commissioner, looking only at Clause 4. I say in credit to the noble and learned Lord that it looks as though a large number of your Lordships have not read Schedule 1 to the Bill, because it is an absolute clear fact and matter of law that if the appointment of the voluntary assisted dying commissioner under Clause 4 was done improperly and not objectively, it would immediately be opened to a host of judicial review cases, which would be brought by every interested party or group looking at this issue.

I want to say something quite different, and here comes my “I told you so” moment. Some noble Lords may just about recall that, early in Committee, I proposed Amendment 120, which proposed returning to a court-based model architecture for the Bill: among others, the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, referred to that earlier. If we were to follow the provisions of Amendments 120 and 137, which would remove Clause 4(4)(b), (c) and (d), we would have a clear, court-based procedure. Amendment 120 could of course be improved, and I think I am going to be given some facilities by the noble and learned Lord to talk to officials in the near future about that and how it might be designed, but it would mean that the voluntary assisted dying commissioner would then have a much more limited role, which would be to monitor the operation of the Act, receive documents under the Act and report, just as other independent reviewers report, on functions that they are placed in some position of authority over.

I suggest to the Committee that we would not need to have spent the last two and a quarter hours having the debate we have had if we had that simple architecture, which would inspire the confidence of being supported by the courts, knowing that this would be subject to normal court, appeal and evidential procedures. Maybe we should come back to that at a later stage. I hope that the noble and learned Lord may change his mind about that once he considers carefully and in detail what has happened this morning.

Equality and Human Rights Commission

Debate between Lord Carlile of Berriew and Lord Harper

Thursday 26th February 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

My Lords—

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Lord Carlile of Berriew and Lord Harper

Committee stage
Friday 6th February 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harper (Con)]

I am going to limit my remarks to a couple of process points, which think are important. I have listened very carefully to those with considerable expertise on the clinical issues raised by these amendments, and I just want to cover these points.

The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, has just made the point that this loophole has been well understood for some time and was not dealt with in the House of Commons, although it could have been. I gently say, because there is some frustration from the supporters of this Bill about the time taken to scrutinise it, in repeating what I have said before—it is part of the reason why noble Lords are having to table significant amendments and debate this Bill at length—that there are considerable gaps in the Bill that have been known for some time and have not previously been dealt with. The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, was exactly right to point out that it is this House that will have delivered an amendment to make that considerable improvement, which has been argued for by a number of people for some time. We are doing good work here, whatever people may think of the principle of the Bill, in improving the drafting.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, referred at the beginning to whether the Committee would accept this change to the Bill. I make a clear distinction here—and I am going to be very supportive of his position—between this debate and the earlier debate on what he described as drafting amendments. Many of us considered that they were not drafting amendments but quite significant changes, and we made it clear that, if he pressed them, we would oppose him. In this case, his Amendment 87, as amended by Amendment 87A, clearly resolves one issue in the Bill, and that is welcome. I would certainly have no objection if the noble and learned Lord pressed the amendment, and I hope the Committee would accept it, because there is general agreement that it would improve the Bill.

Finally, as has been said by the noble Baronesses, Lady Parminter and Lady Berger, the noble and learned Lord’s amendment fixes one problem. I am not at all an expert in this area, but I understand from those who are that it deals with the issue of anorexia but leaves other eating disorders such as bulimia unresolved, as the noble Baroness, Lady Berger, said. There are other amendments in this group that raise those issues.

I hope for two things. When the Minister responds, I hope that she can commit at a later stage to setting out that, in the view of the Government and the Department of Health, with regard to the span of eating disorders, the Bill will actually deal with them when we have made some more progress on it. That is a factual point, not an expression of a policy position. When the noble and learned Lord responds, as well as pressing Amendment 87 as amended by Amendment 87A, I hope that he can say something positive about what work he will conduct with the Department of Health on drafting some later amendments on Report to deal with the other eating disorders that have been explained, so that we can make sure that there are no loopholes covering any of these eating disorders. As we have heard, they affect a very significant number of people, particularly younger people, and particularly younger women. I want to make sure that we properly protect them as this Bill proceeds through your Lordships’ House.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

My Lords, I signed the noble and learned Lord’s amendment, and I thank him very much for introducing it. In my view, it is a very important amendment. Noble Lords who have seen a serious eating disorder at close quarters will know that it not only disturbs the person who suffers from that eating disorder, but dramatically affects everybody around them. It is all too easy to be fatalistic about it, not challenge it and try to make one’s way through it.

It is a condition that, in my view, produces three possible outcomes. One, in all too many cases, as we have heard, is suicide. For some, indeed in quite a number of cases, there is recovery. However, perhaps most people who suffer from anorexia, particularly at a young age, learn to live with it. It is that living with it that, in my view, is the most important reason for ensuring that it plays no part in the outcomes envisaged in this Bill. For everybody who suffers from an eating disorder—this perhaps particularly needs to be said to teenagers who suffer from eating disorders, whether boys or girls—the important thing is that there is hope of some kind of good recovery, even if it is just learning to live with it. Something that offers such hope should not, in my view, be part of anything remotely resembling this Bill.