Equality Act 2010 (Specific Duties) Regulations 2011

Debate between Lord Campbell of Alloway and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Tuesday 6th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell of Alloway]

My Lords, the purpose today is to consider some reasoned opinions as to what should be done in a highly distraught situation. It has not been substantially debated as yet but it is time that we gave it time. I hope today not to divide but to consider what has been said. I am grateful to my noble friend, with whom I do not totally agree, and to the noble Lord, Lord Lester—with whom I seldom agree, but we disagree in amity—for what he has said, with which I do not agree at all for two reasons.

First, this is a question of religious freedom, putting it simply—the concept of it and the implementation of it. There are, inevitably, such matters as adoption agencies but it is wider than that and it applies to all religions. We are still a member of the EU, and those member states with written constitutions defend in them exactly the type of religious freedoms which we are discussing. Because they are defended in that way in those constitutions, they are not within the remit of any of the EU courts. We do not have a constitution and if we want to get out of the trap there is actually only one way, which has not yet been considered. That is why I am so grateful to my noble friend.

If we have a constitution Bill which makes the appropriate provision akin to those of others in the Union and it is approved by our Supreme Court—which now is, in effect, a constitutional court—we are home. Nobody has considered that but if you do not do it that way, you cannot do it at all. It is no use saying, “Oh, we will make statutes. We will do this, we will do that”. This was explained perfectly clearly. I took up the point with my noble friend Lord Pilkington after the debate, in our usual conversations which we had in a little room not far from here. He said, “Well, I had better find out a bit about this. I had a brilliant pupil who is now at the Bar—somebody called Armitage. I am going to ask him to send me an opinion”. I had never met Armitage. In fact he is a brilliant man, a first rate-lawyer, totally objective, and not in any way involved in politics. He wrote an opinion and I am talking to the effect of his opinion, which was my opinion too. My noble friend gave me a copy of the opinion and I am afraid I have lost it, but it is very important that it should be found, and perhaps Armitage could provide a copy.

This one short point has never been taken and never been understood. Unless you get a constitutional position, our courts will have to accept that they cannot be excluded from the European laws—putting it broadly—with which we are bound at the moment.

That was also in a sense explained by the noble Lord, Lord Sacks, in his article in the Times after the debate, in which the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Winchester took one view, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Oxford took the other view, and my noble friend Lord Waddington was concerned.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, I do hesitate to interrupt the noble Lord, but there are a number of people I know want to speak, and if he could wind up it would help the House in its deliberations. I do apologise to the noble Lord for raising it in this way.

[Lord Campbell of Alloway]

I have to say I could not quite hear what my noble friend was saying. If I have done anything wrong, I apologise. Should I shut up?

Government: Role of the State

Debate between Lord Campbell of Alloway and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Tuesday 2nd November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am not in a position to answer that question definitively, but I will ask my noble friend, the Minister responsible, to write to the noble Baroness on that issue. However, we do not see the bodies that are being created under the proposals that I have been talking about as state bodies. They will be community governed and community empowered.

[Lord Campbell of Alloway]

My Lords, has not the role of the state many aspects, one of which is to retain our residual sovereignty?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Yes; I suppose each to his own. Government centrally certainly has fundamental responsibilities for the security and stability of the society in which we live. However, the policy direction of the Question was about the devolution to local communities of responsibilities that are not necessarily matters for the security and establishment of the state. I was able to give an affirmative answer to my noble friend Lord Roberts of Conwy’s request that that is government policy.