Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Campbell of Alloway and Lord Beecham

Tuesday 6th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell of Alloway]

My Lords, I would like to raise the matter of the process of putting in statute what in the ordinary course of events should be put in subordinate legislation by regulations or whatever. If you read the amendment carefully, it is a very wide command involving four assessments of individuals’ needs. I am not at all criticising what is sought, but I ask for it to be considered that the amendment would open a large gateway of legal challenge to the Secretary of State that would not exist if this were not put into statute. This question is concerned with finance at a time when finance need not be referred to again.

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on bringing forward the amendment, to which there seem to be two limbs. The first involves finance and looks forward—indeed, arguably it paves the way—to the Dilnot report or some version of it being the basis for the complex issue of catering for the needs, present and future, of a significant proportion of the population.

The second limb is directed more towards the services that will be required, which we would all agree need to be better co-ordinated than they have been. In that respect, I have a certain sense of déjà vu. At the time of the 1973 reorganisation, I was chairman of my city council’s social services committee when various services that were directed to run adult social care were transferred to the health service—chiropody, bath attendant services and the like. At that time, the area health authority, as it then was, found itself in difficulties and unable to fund the continuation of the service, so my authority contributed significantly financially to preserve the very services that we had handed over. That illustrated clearly the need for a much better relationship between the two sides that, a generation later, has still to be achieved. My noble friend’s amendment would certainly direct us further along the road to integration.

The noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, refers to the impossibility of progress being achieved without a single body organising it. I do not think that that is right. In fairness to the Bill and the Government, the creation of the health and well-being boards, with the obligation to produce a joint strategic needs assessment and to collaborate in implementing the measures required to deal with those needs, provides a more coherent framework for that necessary degree of collaboration.