Agriculture Bill

Debate between Lord Cameron of Dillington and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Report stage & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 17th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)]

My Lords, when we come to the amendments in my name I will explain that they intend to, and will, provide for the smooth running of existing schemes under the EU programmes, not only so that they can continue to work well but so that people due to receive funds from them can do so. The amendments we have discussed were about additional and beyond, but my amendments on retained EU law are technical amendments to ensure that the existing programme under the existing schemes can work effectively.

[Lord Cameron of Dillington (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I thank all those who have taken part in this short debate, albeit that it has taken place over two days—three, if you add in yesterday. I also thank the Minister for his carefully worded reply. I know that he personally understands the problems I have described and the importance of the wider rural economy, not only to farmers and farming households but to those who live on the edge in our countryside and whose poverty remains largely ignored by government.

Meanwhile, I reassure my good friend, the noble Baroness, Lady Young, that it was never my intention to take money away from ELMS, or even the agricultural budget—or perhaps, as she might have put it more figuratively, I had no wish to hang another bauble on to the ELMS Christmas tree. I was trying to make the “rural affairs” bit of Defra a bit more of a reality, as recommended by two Select Committee reports of this House in recent years. However, as hinted at by my very old friend, the noble Baroness, Lady Chisholm, it is probably best to keep rural communities alongside all other communities and therefore firmly within the ministry for communities, now known as MHCLG.

The Minister has indeed given me some comfort in what he said about the shared prosperity fund, although I realise that nothing is certain before the comprehensive spending review. It might have been good to hear some indication as to when we will get any tangible details about the shared prosperity fund, but I suppose, with our economy currently on a precipice of uncertainty owing to the fallout from Covid and the ongoing doubts about the Brexit deal, it would have been asking too much to expect more detail when neither the Treasury nor MHCLG have any firm grip on where they are going.

Anyway, I will stop there. In the light of the Minister’s undertakings on the Floor of the House about a future rural component of a shared prosperity fund, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Agriculture Bill

Debate between Lord Cameron of Dillington and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Committee stage & Committee: 5th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 5th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 21st July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the vision is for a prosperous rural economy, which obviously includes food production and agriculture. However, a whole range of communities form the rural economy. We want to ensure that all rural dwellers have the same opportunities. I have to say that very few industries have been promised that they will retain the same annual contribution from the taxpayer for the whole of this Parliament; sometimes noble Lords forget that in some of their commentary. That is most exceptional, and it shows that the Government support farmers and rural communities. That is of course why there is a very significant investment in the broadband structure. Therefore, there is a considerable vision for a prosperous, skilled and innovative agricultural sector within a broader rural economy.

[Lord Cameron of Dillington [V]]

My Lords, I thank the Minister very much for his extensive response to this debate. When will he be able to tell us whether there will be a well-financed, ring-fenced rural fund as part of the shared prosperity fund? When will we know about that?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I am afraid that I cannot give a precise date other than what I said in my remarks, that the quantum and design of the fund will take place following the spending review; I cannot give any further detail. However, I can say that the efforts and the work of Defra with MHCLG are to ensure that there is a very strong rural component so that rural businesses are an intrinsic part of this fund.

Fisheries Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Cameron of Dillington and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords & Report: 1st sitting & Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Monday 22nd June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cameron of Dillington [V]]

My Lords, my reference to the Marine (Scotland) Act was really trying to say that the authorities up there went for the socioeconomic objective rather than the long-term environmental objective and, as a result, six years after the Marine (Scotland) Act, fishing continues in what should be a protected area. As the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, said in his introduction, short-term socioeconomic priorities always seem to trump long-term environmental objectives. Of course, we all know that such an approach is based on a false premise because securing good ocean health provides the strongest possible foundation for a sustainable industry. In response to the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, it is like a farmer nurturing his soil: without that long-term approach, the socioeconomic future of an industry is not realistically secure. Does the Minister not think that we should now endeavour to achieve the sustainability objectives instead of the eight objectives in Clause 1, which, put together, mean very little?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I would say to the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, that there have now been many iterations of the Bill and a lot of consideration has been given to it. We have a balance of objectives here: sustainability, the three-legged stool and all the many other essential objectives, including—as the noble Lord, Lord Mann, effectively mentioned—addressing climate change. There could be no more important objective than that. The Government believe that the balance we have created with the support of the devolved Administrations offers the strongest possible way forward.

Fisheries Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Cameron of Dillington and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard - continued) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 2nd March 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, I am most grateful to noble Lords for this short debate. As I understand it, the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, is concerned that our provisions relating to equal access could lead to unintended consequences, which could include a further concentration of the fishing industry, and incentivise the purchasing of additional quota from other fisheries authorities.

The UK Government believe that the equal access objective in the Fisheries Bill is vital as it sets out a joint commitment for all four fisheries administrations to work together to ensure that boats based all over the UK enjoy the same rights of access to fish in UK waters, no matter where their home port is. This is important, since many vessels fish in the waters of multiple fisheries authorities. As with all the objectives, this objective has been carefully developed and designed with close discussion with the devolved Administrations. This is one of the key points that I would like to make to the noble Lord: the objective is limited to access to waters only and does not grant any access to quota.

Amendment 95 relates to UK quota-setting and seeks to remove the restriction on setting different maxima by reference to a UK boat’s home port or other connection. I will provide some further detail on the provisions in Clause 23. Clause 23 relates to the determination of the pot of UK fishing opportunities. It does not relate to the subsequent allocation of those opportunities to the fisheries administrations, or to their subsequent distribution to the fishing industry. Total UK fishing opportunities are defined by the criteria set out in the clause: the description of sea fish, the area of the sea and the description of the fishing vessel.

The reason for the stipulation in Clause 23(4) that fishing opportunities cannot be set based on any reference to a boat’s home port or connection to a particular part of the UK is to ensure that this power can be used to set only the overall amount of UK-wide fishing opportunities. It cannot be used to determine how quota, once divided between the fisheries administrations, is allocated to each administration’s industry. This is clearly a devolved matter.

Amendment 95 would therefore give the Secretary of State the power to set quota within devolved competence—for example, setting quota for boats fishing out of Peterhead in Scotland. This is clearly not something that would be desired by the Committee; nor do I think it is the noble Lord’s intention. He may hope that the amendment addresses the need for local boats to have access to local quota. This is a matter for each administration, but Clause 17, which my noble friend Lord Lansley referred to, maintains the current approach on this: each administration will use transparent criteria, including environmental and socioeconomic criteria, when deciding how to allocate quota. The amendment therefore does not achieve the exact effect the noble Lord may have hoped for.

I also provide further reassurance that the methodology for allocating quota to industry within England is published in the publicly available English quota management rules, alongside the allocations themselves. Each administration also has its own quota management rules. The Government are committed to supporting fishers around the country and we are engaging with them to ensure that our coastal communities see the maximum benefit from the quota that we hold.

I will provide a further piece of information. The equal access objective in Clause 1 preserves the status quo. Currently all UK boats can fish in all UK waters. Clause 17 provides for each administration to license foreign boats in its waters, since licensing is a devolved matter. In practice, each administration will delegate its licensing functions to, or allow the administration of, a single UK licensing regime through the single licensing authority.

I am very happy to have a further discussion with the noble Lord if there are any residual matters of concern. I hope that I have got across that the equal access objective is precisely on the basis to ensure—particularly with many vessels fishing in the waters of multiple fisheries authorities—that this is equal access for all rather than the way in which the noble Lord describes it. Our intention is for the four constituent parts to have the ability to fish in UK waters.

[Lord Cameron of Dillington (CB)]

My Lords—

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I have not finished yet. So that is where the position lies. I will now take the noble Lord’s intervention.

[Lord Cameron of Dillington]

I apologise to the Minister. It may be that he cannot answer this question but, when it comes to the future division, he said that the boats may have access to the waters but not necessarily to the quota, which explains many of the problems. Is the quota going to be divided into the areas that currently exist—7A, 7B, 7C, 7D and 6—or are we going to have completely new areas? How localised will these areas be? Will they be near to the Cornish ports that the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, is worried about? It may be that that has not been decided yet.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I will avail myself of receiving some information and let everyone in this debate know. Clearly, it is a devolved matter and therefore all three devolved Administrations and the UK Government will make those considerations. That is why I mentioned in particular the English quota management rules. These are matters of responsibility for the devolved Administrations and ourselves in terms of quota. On that basis, I hope the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

Farming

Debate between Lord Cameron of Dillington and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Wednesday 8th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I take the opportunity of the noble Baroness’s question to speak of a manifesto commitment. We will guarantee the current annual budget to farmers in every year of the Parliament. I am very pleased that in December last year the Chancellor confirmed nearly £3 billion of funding for 2020. By way of a simplified countryside stewardship scheme that is coming in and through the pilots of the environmental land management scheme, we want a scheme flexible enough to work across England and all sectors, so that we enhance the environment and that the public good already being done by many farmers is properly recognised.

[Lord Cameron of Dillington (CB)]

My Lords, has Defra commissioned research, along the lines of that carried out by the Welsh Government, as to what land, notably upland, is likely to become unfarmed after the extended single farm payment runs out? Has it calculated what is likely to happen to that land?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, environmental land management schemes will be available in the uplands, so that farmers can decide about food production, timber production and the public goods that will benefit. I do not see any problem at all about such parts of the country, with the right trees in the right places, being part of our work and the farming community’s work to ensure that we have greater tree cover. I do not see it in quite the way the noble Lord describes, with parts of the country being unfarmed: we will be farming for timber and food production and for the environment.

Brexit: Farming Tariffs

Debate between Lord Cameron of Dillington and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Tuesday 19th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, domestic production in eggs is around 86% of UK supply. The noble Lord mentioned questions of lower quality. We remain committed to high standards of food safety and animal welfare. Existing UK import standards will still apply. The level of tariff applied does not change what can and cannot be imported.

[Lord Cameron of Dillington (CB)]

My Lords, can we assume that the Government are aware also of the serious dangers posed to agriculture by EU tariffs on our exports in the event of a no-deal Brexit? If, for example, our beef exports were to suffer the current EU tariff of 80% to 90% or our lamb industry were to export through a 35% to 40% tariff it would kill those two industries dead and undermine the agricultural economy of large swathes of our countryside.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the Government take this very seriously. It is one reason why we have said that British farmers will have a higher level of certainty than anywhere else in Europe vis-à-vis total funds in farm support until the end of this Parliament. We have also provided farm support under Pillar 1 and Pillar 2 under the current CAP. However, we expect it to be one of the consequences of no deal that the EU’s most favoured nation tariff regime would apply to UK exports, which we think would cause disruption. It is why we have brought forward the tariff regime that we have and it is why we need to work to ensure that we do not have a no-deal scenario.

Brexit: Food Security

Debate between Lord Cameron of Dillington and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Tuesday 20th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I declare my interests as a farmer and my short reply to my noble friend is—yes to all three. It is very important to recognise that the UK’s current production-to-supply ratio is 60% for all food and 75% for indigenous-type foods. This is why we have a very strong domestic supply and other sources. We have excellent food in this country, which we are exporting to the degree of £22 billion last year—and, yes, we should buy British.

[Lord Cameron of Dillington (CB)]

Are all sections of government and all departments in Whitehall signed up to the principle that we will never import food into the UK that is produced by methods that are illegal for UK farmers?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I have confirmed that a number of times at the Dispatch Box and I will do so again. On the specific issue of hormone-treated beef, the UK has transposed EU Council directive 96/22/EC. On chlorine-washed chicken, we already have provisions through the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. We have a very strong record, in this country and abroad, for environmental protection of our food and high standards of animal welfare. That is how we are going to trade around the world and we are certainly not going to compromise that.

Brexit: Food Security

Debate between Lord Cameron of Dillington and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Tuesday 23rd October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

There are a number of ways in which we must address food waste. Each household is wasting a huge amount of food, on average something like £700 a year. The Government have set up a pilot scheme which they are supporting with £15 million of additional funding. This is because already 43,000 tonnes of surplus food is redistributed from retailers and food manufactures every year. We think a further 100,000 tonnes of food, equating to 250 million meals a year, is edible and should be redistributed. Wasting food is an unconscionable thing, and we want this pilot scheme to work in order to reduce it.

[Lord Cameron of Dillington (CB)]

My Lords, would it not be possible for the Government to set themselves a target bracket of nutritional self-sufficiency which ensures we are neither too dependent on imports nor, at the other end of the scale, too dependent on our own productive capabilities and our own unpredictable weather? Such a bracket would be very useful as a target for the Government.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I think there is a distinction between food security and self-sufficiency. Clearly, given the weather in our country, and indeed disease, I think the most important thing is that we have a wide range of sources for food, because that is how we will get food security. With 75% of indigenous-type foods produced in this country, we produce excellent food and drink—it is one of the largest sectors—and we should be proud of it, and of course I encourage the consumption of British food and drink.

Agriculture: Gene Editing

Debate between Lord Cameron of Dillington and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Tuesday 6th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, as I said, this is about different research into different areas, and we believe that this is a force for good for the reasons that I have articulated. It is about advancing our knowledge of pests and diseases and enhancing animal welfare. Whether it is the work at the Roslin Institute at the University of Edinburgh on diseases in pigs—for instance, African swine fever—or other research, all this work on gene editing could make a remarkable difference and represent an advance in animal welfare. Those are the reasons we think it is a force for good.

[Lord Cameron of Dillington (CB)]

My Lords, I hope the Government are aware that these techniques developed in the UK could be beneficial to the wider world and its environment. Built-in resistance to pests and diseases means a big reduction in the use of chemicals in the developing world, where it is very hard to train smallholder farmers in the use of chemicals. Are the Government aware that in-built drought resistance could be crucial for sub-Saharan Africa? I hope the Government will encourage our research facilities to become world leaders in these techniques for the sake of the developing world’s smallholder agriculture.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, these techniques will be a force for good, not only in this country but particularly in helping the rest of the world feed itself. Therefore, we should advance this innovation. Certainly, our industrial strategy and our agritech strategy are designed to help agriculture, both domestically and around the world.

Brexit: Farm Support

Debate between Lord Cameron of Dillington and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Monday 6th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the Secretary of State has been very clear that we will not in any way allow animals to come in that are produced to a lower standard using compromised welfare standards as compared with our own very high-quality produce, which is our great British brand. Let us be clear: we do not propose to permit any product to come in that has lower animal welfare standards. We are not going to compromise on that.

[Lord Cameron of Dillington (CB)]

My Lords, what discussions have the Government had with rural and indeed urban organisations to establish what services land managers can provide to others to best maximise the benefits of the countryside to the whole population, and while doing so to best maximise returns to farmers?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right. Not only are we engaging with farming organisations and farmers, we are engaging with non-farming organisations in both the urban and the rural situation. I have an extremely long list before me of organisations that we are working with, from the Campaign to Protect Rural England, Compassion in World Farming, the Woodland Trust, the Centre for Ecology & Hydrology, to the RSPB. We engage with so many organisations because what we want in the 25-year environment plan and in our proposals for agriculture is to have a consensus about the way forward on enhancing the environment.

Energy Bill

Debate between Lord Cameron of Dillington and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Tuesday 16th July 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Cameron of Dillington]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Deben, for endorsing my point. I was going to say that, unfortunately, China’s ravenous need for more and more power means that it has found it difficult to produce that power without building more and more coal-fired power stations in the short term. China will be a really big marketplace for CCS if we can pull it off.

As I understand it, one of the future supplies of gas, underground coal gas, could be the cheapest way of removing the carbon dioxide—although, again, as the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, said, these techniques have yet to be proven on a large scale. Before the fuel is burnt, it becomes a largely hydrogen mix, which, as noble Lords will know, produces an effluent made up mostly of water. UCG—underground coal gas—could be a fuel of the future. If we can get CCS involved in UCG, it would be an economically beneficial project for the UK to carry off. We must support CCS to the best of our ability in terms not only of adequate funding but of latitude in the regulations to allow it to overcome its teething problems.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, for introducing this chapter of the Bill. I hope that noble Lords will understand that when I first studied the Bill and saw that Clause 47 opens with a formula, I was rather bothered. Providing that we can all keep to layman’s language, I will try my best, but if we go into formulae, I may need more advice.

I thank the noble Baroness also for tabling this amendment, which seeks to provide carbon capture and storage projects with an exemption from the emissions performance standard during their commissioning and proving period, with any exemption limited to a maximum period of three years. I am grateful, too, to all noble Lords for their contributions to this interesting debate at the beginning of this part of the Bill. I continue to learn a great deal.

The Government believe that CCS will have a critical role to play in reducing emissions in our country, allowing coal and gas, including that produced from indigenous sources, to continue to be part of our future low-carbon energy mix. The Government share the noble Baroness’s enthusiasm for CCS and want to see it deployed at scale in the 2020s, competing on cost with other low-carbon technologies. Our CCS programme is designed to drive forward the rapid commercialisation of CCS and includes £1 billion of capital funding for the first projects under the CCS competition. I note that we have two preferred bidders, Peterhead and White Rose; obviously, we will need to consider their progress.

My noble friend Lord Jenkin talked about CCS working abroad. It is advancing particularly in America and Canada. Those projects are combined with enhanced oil recovery, which improves the economics of the projects. Some of the circumstances of Europe and this country may be different, but those examples suggest that progress is being made around the world.

The noble Baroness will no doubt be aware that the original draft Bill contained provision for giving CCS projects supported under our CCS competition an exemption from the EPS. The purpose was to provide CCS projects with some flexibility in relation to the limits imposed on the operation of a plant by the EPS in order to help manage the inherent risks associated with trials of a first-of-a-kind technology. However, during pre-legislative scrutiny of the Bill, concerns were raised around the scope of the exemption provisions, in that the use of broad exemptions could undermine the purpose of the EPS. The Government looked at this again and decided, on balance, that these concerns could be addressed by managing any EPS-related risk through the CCS project-funding contract issued to a project under our CCS competition.

However, there have been a number of developments since last year with our CCS competition, which has stimulated industry to bring a number of proposals for CCS projects. The Government are therefore keen to encourage the development and deployment of CCS, irrespective of whether it is part of the CCS competition, so we have already been considering options for how we might provide CCS projects with some flexibility under the EPS during the early commissioning phase.

The noble Baroness’s amendment is tightly prescribed and would limit the duration of the exemption so that it was explicitly consistent with the overall purpose of the EPS. Undoubtedly there are positive advantages to the approach reflected in the amendment. As I understand the way of things, therefore, I would like to give much further consideration to the amendment ahead of Report. I repeat my thanks to the noble Baroness and ask her if she will consider withdrawing her amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for tabling this amendment, which has prompted a further debate on this additional aspect of EPS. During our debate so far, there has been a good deal of consensus among noble Lords on ensuring that the UK remains an attractive option for those looking to invest in a low-carbon electricity sector, and on the importance of gas generation. Noble Lords have also noted that the key to meeting that objective is providing investors with certainty about the regulatory environment that will govern their assets.

The Government’s gas generation strategy, published in December, set out our view that, along with low-carbon generation, we expect gas generation to continue to play a major role in our electricity mix over the coming decades as we decarbonise our electricity system, providing flexible back-up to increasing levels of intermittent generation. It also said that we are likely to need significant investment in new gas plants, in part to replace older coal, gas and nuclear plants as they are retired from the system, with much of that investment likely to be in the 2020s. It is therefore vital that we provide investors in new gas plants with the degree of certainty needed to ensure investment comes forward. Certainty over the EPS is part of that, and grandfathering the EPS limit until the end of 2044 will—

[Lord Cameron of Dillington]

A gas power station produces emissions of 300 grams per kilowatt hour, coal 600 grams. Hence we have the target of 450 grams. So, if we are trying to encourage more gas, why must we have an emissions target of 150 grams per kilowatt hour more than the 300 that gas emits?