Post Offices: Cash Withdrawal Services

Lord Cameron of Dillington Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cameron of Dillington (CB)]

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that other countries, including France, the Netherlands and New Zealand, have saved much of their rural post office network by supporting their role as deliverers of financial services? Is he further aware that there are now more post offices in rural England than all the banks put together? In some areas of rural England, only post offices are serving the financial needs of local traders. Will the Government please offer some financial or fiscal incentive for Post Office Counters Ltd and all the banks to work together to ensure that the future of their local traders and communities is safe?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Lord is correct. Since 2010 we have invested £2.3 billion in the Post Office network, stabilising the number of banks. There was a 27% decrease in the 10 years before 2014. The decrease since then has been only 1%—the money is making a difference.

Localism Bill

Lord Cameron of Dillington Excerpts

Monday 31st October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Deben]

I am attracted to the amendment, which has been so ably moved by my noble friend Lord Marlesford. As a campaigning environmentalist I am sometimes concerned that the one issue that unites everyone is not fighting climate change—which, of course, is the biggest issue of all—but litter. If you really want to cause a major row, then raise the issue of litter. The Government have to be careful about appearing not to recognise how, particularly in the countryside, as the noble Lord, Lord Reay, has said, this is an issue of considerable concern.

I find it one of the more depressing things that, in the beautiful part of England where I live, at most weekends the first part of the job is to pick up the various items that have been pushed into the hedge and down the drive of the house in which I live. It is a sad fact but it is one that needs to be taken seriously, and I hope noble Lords will agree that this elegant use of the Bill—to give opportunity for particular local authorities to make a particular choice—would be a sensible step. I am sure the Minister may have some really remarkable argument to show a better way forward, which I look forward to hearing.

In Suffolk we have a very successful campaign, which I have to speak of very carefully because it is headlined by the phrase, “Don’t be a tosser”. It is designed to make people stop throwing things out of car windows. This is a real issue. The local authorities in Suffolk might well like to take the opportunity, were they able to, to help the Government by trialling such a proposal. I hope the Government will take seriously what the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, has suggested.

[Lord Cameron of Dillington]

My Lords, I strongly support this amendment, and in doing so I must declare an interest as a farmer. We are plagued by litter from cars down in Somerset where I come from. It does not tend to be what I would call black-bag-type litter, although that is sometimes worse because the bags are thrown out of cars and explode and the litter goes all over the field in a real mess and is very difficult to pick up.

The worst sort of litter that we have is old fridges, old cookers, old beds and old mattresses. They get poured out into little nooks and crannies by the road and then seem to breed. I feel that there is a book in here somewhere, although perhaps not the type of stuff the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, writes. You get one cooker, and then two. Then they will have a daughter of a fridge and a mattress will arrive. It is a most extraordinary thing and no one seems to have the responsibility for picking it up. I know one or two local farmers who shovel the stuff back on to the road, so then it becomes the responsibility of the Highways Agency, which of course makes it responsible for littering the countryside.

It is obviously very difficult for the local council, because almost every night somewhere around my neighbourhood someone has dumped some particular object or other. Can the council do anything to prosecute the motorist? If you are worried that it might not be the motorist who has dumped it but someone in the car, do not tell me that a motorist is not responsible if his car is stopped and a fridge gets thrown out. A motorist is just as responsible as the person who might be in the back seat. I really endorse this amendment and think it is really very important that we support it.

Localism Bill

Lord Cameron of Dillington Excerpts

Tuesday 19th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lucas]

My Lords, I have an amendment in the group which has nothing to do with the Bill, and I apologise to my noble for inserting it. However, it relates to a long-running campaign for the age of voting to be lowered. When it comes to what is happening in their own community, children as young as 14 not only have a real understanding of that, but are also participating in what is going on and have an interest in the things a community might be doing to improve itself. We should look for ways of involving them.

[Lord Cameron of Dillington]

My Lords, I have tabled Amendment 153ZAKA in this group. It is probing in nature and probably does not require an immediate answer. Your Lordships are unlikely to remember that at Second Reading I expressed a concern that bad neighbour developments might possibly end up in neighbourhoods or parishes where the opposition to such a bad neighbourhood development was likely to be the least vocal. I gather that this is a phenomenon which happens even today, and with a neighbourhood planning system is probably more likely to happen in the future. The reason a neighbourhood is not vocal may be that it is already a deprived area or it is one which for a variety of reasons lacks the capacity, the personalities, the knowledge or possibly just an understanding of this new system and the way things work. It may also lack the funding to commit itself to the preparation of a neighbourhood plan or organising a referendum and so on. Even without the threat of a bad neighbour development, it is likely that many parishes and neighbourhoods lack the time and capacity to organise a cohesive plan which, it is hoped, would promote development and progress. I do not believe that these sorts of communities will be able to compete within the new system.

I was struck by some briefing that I received from the Highgate Society, which, albeit in a completely different context, said—I paraphrase—that people have jobs, children and lives to manage and do not want to take responsibility for what they pay their taxes to government, particularly local government, to do. This applies particularly to deprived neighbourhoods or to people within rural parishes who do not necessarily have the ability to counteract either an articulate middle class who might share their parish or someone with a bee in their bonnet who does necessarily consider the effects of their grievance on the whole community. Perhaps I may paraphrase, or plagiarise, a Chinese proverb—I am not quite sure that it is a Chinese proverb, but, if it is not, it should be: a man with a job or income that pays for more than his basic needs has many choices as to how he spends his time, but a man who struggles to earn his basic needs has only one choice. Very often in rural communities, the poorest people do not get involved because they focus on other needs.

Although the whole localism agenda is a very worthy cause, many people will need a lot of help to play their part. It is vital that the Government devote considerable thought and resources to working out how they help all communities to do that. It is the very communities who are least likely to play their part and pick up the baton who are probably in most need of the localism agenda. I hope that the Government will be prepared to spend a lot of time and resources on developing capacity in those neighbourhoods. It would be good if they could respond positively and state exactly how they are going to set about this.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, before the Minister responds, perhaps I may comment on the amendments which have just been moved. I thoroughly support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Cameron. Issues around capacity are vital, not only to the planning aspects of the Bill but to the whole issue of localism and whether people can make a reality of it. The impact assessment sets out the range of figures that might be involved in developing neighbourhood plans and holding referenda. Those are not small figures—I have forgotten what the range is, but it is not insignificant.

If there is not proper capacity building, proper training and proper funding, then, as the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, said, the people who will be able to take advantage of these arrangements will be the better off. They will inevitably—from their point of view not unreasonably—use them for their benefit and not necessarily for the benefit of the community as a whole. We should guard against that.

As regards the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, he wishes for people to be involved in the referendum from the age of 14. I do not disagree with that but, as the schedule is constructed, to be able to vote in a referendum you need to be able to vote for your councillor in the first place. You therefore need to be 18 years of age and so he might need a slightly different amendment. However, the concept of involving young people in their neighbourhood is absolutely right and I support it.

Localism Bill

Lord Cameron of Dillington Excerpts

Tuesday 5th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham)]

My Lords, before we proceed any further, it might be helpful to Hansard and to the rest of the discussion if I give a short résumé of the purposes behind this part of the Bill. It has caused enormous consternation and we have had endless discussions—useful discussions. If the Committee will allow me, I will take five or 10 minutes to go into it.

The idea behind this chapter is very simple. We know already that many communities, both urban and rural, have lost the use of buildings or land that were important to them because they were sold privately or without an interested community group having time to raise the necessary funds. There are instances of an adult education centre in Calderdale, a Methodist church in Cornwall and any number of village shops and pubs, as well as other community assets, which noble Lords will be aware of in their villages and towns.

Local authorities can, of course, already choose to transfer assets to local community ownership or management. They can do so on favourable terms where it will promote local well-being under existing legislation. The Government have actively supported this and want it to continue. The assets of community value provisions that we are considering today are aimed at situations where the local authority does not choose to do so, and at assets owned by other public bodies and by charitable or private owners. We are giving communities the right to nominate assets of community value and local authorities a duty to list them if they satisfy certain criteria. Then, if—and only if—the owner of a listed asset decides to dispose of it, he or she will not be able to do so for a defined period. This will allow interested community groups the opportunity to prepare a business plan and raise the necessary funds to bid for the asset. The owner will not be restricted in marketing the property in preparation for its disposal during this period. The word “disposal” is used as opposed to “sale” because these provisions will apply both to freehold sales and to the granting and assignment of long leases. Those will be the definition of “disposal”. However, I can assure your Lordships that it is our clear intention that the provisions will not apply to transfers made by inheritance, gifts or transfers between family members and between partners in the same firm or trustees of a single trust; these will be able to proceed unimpeded.

We are continuing to explore other appropriate exemptions, and I would like to address these and other issues concerning the operation of the moratorium rules when we consider Clause 82, which may not be today. I also want to stress that these provisions do not restrict in any way the freedom of the owner of a listed asset to dispose of it to whomever they choose and at whatever price they choose. They only affect when they can do so. Furthermore, they do not confer a right of first refusal, unlike the Community Right to Buy scheme that operates in rural Scotland. Also, they do not directly place any restriction on what an owner can do with their property, once listed, while it remains in their ownership. This is because it is planning policy that determines the permitted use of a particular site. An owner can, of course, apply for planning permission for change of use; this will be dealt with by the local planning authority in the normal way. In that situation, the authority may consider the fact that an asset has been listed as a material consideration, or they may not.

We are acutely aware that we have to balance the community benefit that these provisions will bring with the rights of property owners. That is why we have built a range of safeguards into the process. Landowners will have a right to request that the local authority review a listing decision. We also intend to introduce a right of appeal against a review decision.

The Bill allows for the payment of compensation, and it is our firm intention to put in place a compensation scheme, administered by the local authority, which will consider claims for costs and loss incurred by non-public owners—that is, private owners—in complying with the requirements of the scheme.

The Bill provides for a number of more detailed aspects of the scheme to be set out in regulations. This will make it possible to review how those provisions are working after a year or two and to make adjustments if they appear necessary. It has also allowed us to consult widely on the details, and we have been carefully considering the 256 responses to the consultation, which ended on 3 May. They will inform our views about this as we go along.

There is another balance to strike. On the one hand, consistency across the country is desirable, giving certainty for interests represented nationally. This could be achieved by putting more detail in the Bill or in regulations. On the other hand, in encouraging localism, we want to allow local authorities to use their discretion and respond to local circumstances and views. There are amendments before us, which we will discuss in a minute, that support both these points of view, so following careful consideration of all the representations we have received we believe that certain things should be set nationally to ensure fairness, to safeguard people’s rights and to make it easier for citizens and communities to make use of these provisions alongside the others in the Bill. However, we also believe that there is considerable scope for local decision-making, and our intention is to use delegated powers frugally to ensure appropriate local flexibility.

We expect the debate to focus on four aspects of the provisions in particular. The amendments suggest that this is right. They are the definition of an asset of community value, who has the right to make a community nomination, the length of the moratorium periods and the types of disposals that will be exempt from the provisions. There are amendments about a few other matters. We have set out our current thinking on these and other areas of detail in the discussion paper deposited in the House Library last week, and I informed noble Lords that it was there. We will be happy to expand on our thinking on these areas when we debate the relevant clauses, and we can take into account what has been said.

I thought it might be helpful to put that in context and then, as we discuss the amendments, I will respond to them individually at the end of the debate.

[Lord Cameron of Dillington]

The Minister has set out in detail her view of Chapter 4. I have a completely opposing view of it. I have put my name to the stand part of every single clause to set out an opposing view at this early stage before we get into the detailed amendments. Is that in order, or does the Minister want to take some detailed amendments first?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I suggest that we go into the detail of the amendments and then, if the noble Lord wishes, have a good stand part debate.

[Lord Cameron of Dillington]

On the whole of Chapter 4? At which stage? After the first amendment?

[Earl Attlee]

On the appropriate clause stand part debate.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Byford]

As my noble friend says, it would be the price, but one is not going to bid for something unless one has the ultimate purpose of wanting to buy.

I, too, am sorry that we are discussing this very important part of the Bill at this time of night, but we are. I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken and seek clarification from the Minister on many of the points made, which I fear will make us rather late finishing tonight. I thank my noble friends for proposing their amendments, which I support.

[Lord Cameron of Dillington]

My Lords, I have had a note from the government Front Bench saying, “Do say what you wanted to say”, but I believe that it is far too late at this time of night for me to say what I wanted to say. Like all good bedtime stories, as in The Arabian Nights, I will leave the next episode until we meet again.

[Earl Cathcart]

My Lords, obviously, I support Amendment 136ZD, ably proposed and argued for by my noble friend Lord Gardiner, to which I added my name. I shall not go over that ground again. I also welcome the opening remarks of the Minister. I did not catch all of it, and will read with interest in Hansard tomorrow exactly what she said. She may well have allayed some of the fears that we have heard about relating to this chapter.

Some months ago—it may have been many months ago—I recall the Prime Minister saying that he would bring forward measures for communities to save their village shop, pub and post office. That is an admirable idea, and here we have Chapter 4 before us, but now we have a huge expansion of the assets that communities can save to include all assets from which members of the community derive some benefit. That has put the cat among the pigeons for those landowners and others who allow their communities to enjoy the open spaces of their farms in one way or another. As other noble Lords have said, the unintended consequence of the way that the Bill is written is that landowners will withdraw permission for any activity on their land, a point powerfully put by my noble friend Lord Moynihan. That would be disastrous. If it were to happen, it would go against the grain of the big society, which is what the Bill is meant to be all about.

Amendment 133D goes some way to remedy that, as it focuses on business assets—that is, the village shop the pub and the post office—which, after all, was the original intention of the Prime Minister.

There is another amendment in the names of my noble friends Lord Jenkin and Lord Greaves, Amendment 136ZZB. That would leave out subsection (1) and insert that,

“the local authority will determine whether or not a building or other land is of community value”.

I am afraid that I do not share the view of my noble friend Lord Jenkin. I am slightly nervous of leaving it to a local authority to say what it thinks an asset of community value is. What if the local authority is signed up to the idea that all assets should be to the benefit of communities? That would be very dangerous for landlords and I do not think that I could support that.

In this area, I was having a similar thought about tabling an amendment that would try to take the matter back to business assets rather than all assets. My idea was to provide that “a building or other land may be of community value if it is used on a commercial basis by the local community”. That is very much in the same vein as the first amendment in the group—Amendment 133D—on business assets.

Localism Bill

Lord Cameron of Dillington Excerpts

Tuesday 28th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Birmingham]

My Lords, it might help to progress the debate if I admit that I am speaking on behalf of my right reverend friend the Bishop of Exeter and that I fly under the flag of Birmingham, although I share a Scottish name with the noble Lord opposite.

My right reverend friend the Bishop of Exeter gave notice of his intention to oppose the question that Clause 39 stand part in order to seek an assurance from the Minister on the future of discretionary relief for charities from non-domestic rates. I probe, from these Benches, the Government’s intention in this area.

Currently, under the terms of the Local Government Finance Act 1988, buildings used by charities qualify for a mandatory 80 per cent discount on their non-domestic rates. In addition, as already mentioned, local authorities have discretion to waive some or all of the remaining 20 per cent. Clause 39 deals with the exercise of that discretion. The clause appears to be largely a simplification measure. It removes a series of detailed conditions that must currently be applied when deciding whether to grant discretionary relief. In effect, it appears to replace those detailed conditions with a simple “yes” or “no” exercise of discretion by the billing authority. However, under the terms of new subsection (5A),

“the billing authority may make the decision only if it is satisfied that it would be reasonable for it to do so, having regard to the interests of persons liable to pay council tax set by it”.

We all know that local authorities are currently under severe financial constraints and I am aware of fear among some in the charity sector—here, I declare an interest in several charities with which I am associated as a trustee, president or patron, but hope that noble Lords will excuse me from listing them all now—that the discretionary relief is under threat because cash-strapped councils are looking to make any possible savings that they can. The change proposed in Clause 39 might of course be totally innocuous, but what worries charities is that it might be the green light to cease granting discretionary relief. What does the phrase,

“only if it is satisfied that it would be reasonable for it to do so”,

mean in this situation? Is this what might be called the traditional Wednesbury “reasonable” from 1947 or is it a milder test? My question is very simple: do Ministers expect councils to continue giving discretionary relief or are the Government trying to make it easier for councils to refuse such requests? If the DCLG is trying to make it easier for councils not to give the 20 per cent discretionary relief, how does that square with the big society agenda? Looking to the future, how secure is the 80 per cent mandatory relief?

I very much hope that the Minister can reassure us on both the general intention of this clause and the precise meaning of the words to which I have referred.

[Lord Cameron of Dillington]

My Lords, I support the right reverend Prelate in his intention to oppose the clause standing part. In so doing, as this is the first occasion on which I have spoken in this Committee stage, I declare all my interests as a landowner and farmer and, in this instance, as chairman of the Charities’ Property Association, whose membership includes many charities that either have property as part of their core business as a charity or own property as part of a wider portfolio. I have been asked by my members to probe the Government’s intentions here and, without repeating what the right reverend Prelate has said, I hope that we get some encouraging words from the Minister.

[Lord True]

My Lords, I intervene briefly from the perspective of a local authority. I think that most local authorities would have enormous sympathy with what the right reverend Prelate has just said. I am generally very suspicious of definitional creep. I do not think that the charity world has necessarily been helped by the major attempt to redefine a charity after doing away with the great simplicity and proven law of the Elizabethan statute. Therefore, I hope that we are not going to move down another definitional road.

I would not want to see local authorities not being able to have constructive dialogue with charitable organisations, because I think that discretionary relief is extremely important. On the other hand, sometimes premises are certainly not used as efficiently as they might be. It might be for the general good if two or three charities shared offices that might be improved, and I would not want to see that kind of exploration forbidden. Therefore, I, too, should like to hear from my noble friend, but I certainly feel that this is a provision that local authorities would like to stay long in law.

I could speak for a long time on the subject of the fine arts but I do not think that I will. The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, referred to eloquence and I wondered whether his much admired contributions to these debates meant that debating was a fine art as well. If so, he should be part of it.

Courts: Magistrates’ Courts

Lord Cameron of Dillington Excerpts

Tuesday 14th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Northover]

I have asked whether, if cases were diverted from the Crown Court, this would make any difference to the level of work in the magistrates’ courts and was reassured that that could be accommodated under the new plans. However, it is worth bearing in mind that the utilisation of the courts is not as high as it should be. In many cases the use of the magistrates’ courts is around 64 per cent. This programme brings it up to 75 per cent. It is much easier to focus better facilities in those circumstances.

[Lord Cameron of Dillington]

My Lords, will the Minister please inform the House about the extent of the work of the rural proofing team in the Ministry of Justice? Is this team calculating in detail the extra cost to the customer—witnesses, defendants and victims—of accessing justice in centres which are now sometimes 30 or 40 miles away and to which there is usually no public transport? In other words, how do you access justice in rural England when you do not have a car?

[Baroness Northover]

That very important question was fully looked at in the assessment. At the moment, 90 per cent of people could reach the courts within an hour using public transport. This figure diminishes slightly to 85 per cent. Every case, especially the case of the rural courts, was looked at very closely to see what the impact was, what the demography of the relevant area was, who was likely to, and did, use the courts, and what the impact would be on those people. One survey indicated that only 18 per cent of people using the courts came by public transport. However, that does not mean to say that we should neglect the needs of that 18 per cent.