Upholding Standards in Public Life

Debate between Lord Butler of Brockwell and Lord True

Wednesday 8th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have a responsibility to respond, to consider, and to bring to Parliament the considered results of their reflections on the advice that they are given. As I told the House earlier, the important report that we are discussing was presented last November; we have made some responses and more will follow shortly.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister says that it is only six months since the committee’s report was published. Why is it taking so long for these recommendations to be considered and what processes are being undertaken to consider them?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, far be it from me to advise a former Cabinet Secretary on what processes take place within government. There are matters to consider, which are considered by appropriate departments that may be affected. It is not unusual for a period of six months to pass—even in relation to a report from this particular committee. I could cite other cases, but the important thing is that we come forward with a considered response, which is precisely what I have undertaken to do.

Elections Bill

Debate between Lord Butler of Brockwell and Lord True

Report stage
Monday 25th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords, I have added my name to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, and I really need to add very little to what he has said. It is very difficult to see why there should be opposition to a requirement that political parties should have

“a reasonable and proportionate risk-based policy for identifying the true source of donations.”

The Government’s answer to this, which the noble Earl, Lord Howe, gave in Committee, is that there has to be a balance. It is clear, however, that where the balance is now is not satisfactory, because, as the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, said, there have been a series of donations to all political parties that have been not to the credit of the parties, not good for their reputations and not good for the reputation for cleanliness of our politics.

As I understand the position, the Government have not ruled out acting on the recommendations of the Electoral Commission and the Committee on Standards in Public Life, but regard this as a complicated matter—perhaps it is—and need more time to work on it. If the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, seeks to test the opinion of the House, I will support him. I would be gratefully comforted, however, if not only the Minister but the spokespeople for the other political parties said tonight that they duly take this issue seriously and regard donations from foreign sources and people who want to influence our politics in an unhealthy way as a growing danger to our politics. If the spokespeople for the parties and the Government will say that they take this seriously, and the Government do not rule out acting on the recommendations of the Electoral Commission and the Committee on Standards in Public Life in due course, I will be very comforted.

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I was thinking that others would wish to intervene, but that does not appear to be the case.

These are important amendments, but I shall not encourage anyone to think that the Government will accept them. The context is a shared concern about dirty money, a phrase that the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, used. I do not think any Government have been stronger in response to the Russian invasion, or in bearing down on oligarchs, than this Government. However, following our robust debate in Committee, I am pleased that we are again returning to this important issue of political donations. I do listen to contributions of noble Lords and these debates will certainly serve as a key reference point for the Government as they keep rules on political donations under review, to ensure that they continue to provide an effective safeguard that protects the integrity of our political system. In that context, the Bill bears down very heavily on foreign donations and makes them much harder.

Turing to the specific amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, and the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, Amendment 63 would remove the rights of overseas electors to make political donations. Amendment 69B would place a £7,500 limit on any donation or series of donations from overseas electors. I fear that many will not be surprised when I reiterate that the Government cannot support these amendments, as we intend to uphold the long-standing principle, first introduced by the Committee on Standards in Public Life itself in 1998, that if you are eligible to vote for a party, you are also eligible to donate to that party. These amendments would overturn that principle by removing the right of overseas electors to donate. Overseas electors are British citizens who have the right to vote and, despite what the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, said, the Labour Party has acknowledged that for many years. They are reasonable participants in our democracy. Furthermore, due to the interaction of Amendment 69B and the existing legislation, there would be no provision for either the return of donations exceeding the £7,500 threshold or the reporting of such donations to the Electoral Commission. This leaves a significant gap, which means that the amendment would simply not have the intended impact.

The Government do not support the proposal of the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, to which I listened carefully. It was fair for him to set out his case because he wishes to establish an independent committee to report on the creation of a foundation for democracy. The concept here, however, which is where agreement falls away, is that he submits that this body should be responsible for collecting all donations made to registered political parties and mandatorily allocating them based on membership and vote share at certain elections. The Government can find no justification for this amendment and believe it would place unreasonable restrictions on an individual’s freedom to donate to the political party of their choosing. It would go against the fundamental principle of allowing members of the public to get involved in our democracy by giving their support, be it at the ballot box, via a cup of coffee or via donations, to any party or parties that they choose.

Moreover, this proposal would risk disproportionately penalising smaller parties, which may not have such high levels of membership and vote share as the larger parties, but form an integral part of our democracy. Indeed, it is not clear to me how any new parties would emerge under the noble Lord’s system, as they would not be able to fundraise for themselves and would therefore struggle to get their message out to the public to encourage members to join and voters to support them in the future. The Government are therefore simply not convinced that there is a demand or evidence to support the noble Lord’s radical idea; nor do we think it necessary to establish an independent committee to come to this conclusion. Should other parliamentarians share the noble Lord’s view, the existing framework of parliamentary committees obviously provides an ideal place to consider the proposal further, so I urge the noble Lord not to press his amendment.

Next, I turn to Amendments 66 and 68, spoken to by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, and the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, which address a similar theme. Amendment 66 would seek to cap donations that any one individual or organisation can make to a political party to 5% of that party’s maximum campaign expenditure limit at the preceding election. This cap would apply to all donors, whether individuals or organisations, such as trade unions for example. What effect would it have on a large trade union donation?

Amendment 68 would require the Government to publish a report on proposals to establish state funding of political parties and limitations on private donations. In essence, the noble Baroness and the noble Lord are seeking the Government’s views on these two fundamental principles. I will underline our position.

First, fundraising is a legitimate part of the democratic process. Consequently, there is no cap on political donations to parties, candidates and other types of campaigner but, instead, strict limits on what they can spend on regulated campaign activity during elections. These maintain a level playing field in elections. In particular, the noble Baroness’s amendment has the potential to create a very uneven and complicated playing field. Under the proposal, each political party will have different amounts it can fundraise, given that spending limits are calculated according to the number of constituencies it contests. New political parties in particular, again, would be affected and this change could encourage quite unnatural growth, whereby new parties are incentivised to contest seats they have no intention of winning to give them a more competitive funding limit in the next cycle. I will not be drawn on what percentage of a party’s overall donation might be permitted because the Government simply do not accept that there should be such a percentage figure.

Secondly, there is absolutely no public support for expanding the level of public funding already available to political parties. The Government are not going to go down that road.

Finally, I wish to address Amendment 69, retabled by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker. This would introduce requirements, as he said, for registered parties to carry out risk assessments and due-diligence checks on donations. Only those with a legitimate interest in UK elections can make political donations and there are strict rules requiring companies making donations to be both incorporated and carrying out business in the UK. Parties must check that companies meet these criteria. It is also an offence to circumvent the rules through proxy donors—for example, an impermissible donor seeking to make a donation through a company that is itself a permissible donor. Political parties must already report all donations over a certain value to the Electoral Commission, which are then published online for public scrutiny.

The Government have heard the concerns that donors may seek to evade the rules and, in principle, the point of strengthening the system to provide greater levels of assurance on the sources of donations to ensure they are permissible and legitimate is important. Indeed, the Government recently published, ahead of introducing necessary legislation, the Corporate Transparency and Register Reform White Paper.

Reforms to Companies House will deliver more reliably accurate information on the companies register by introducing mandatory identity verification for people who manage or control companies and other UK-registered entities, providing greater powers for Companies House to query and challenge the information it receives, and introducing more effective investigation and enforcement powers for Companies House. This, in combination with a new power for the Companies House registrar proactively to pass on relevant information to law enforcement and other public and regulatory bodies, including the Electoral Commission, will indirectly support the enforcement of the rules on donations by providing greater confidence in the accuracy of the data held at Companies House, including when seeking information on UK-registered companies and other UK-registered entities that have made political donations.

The Government have not dismissed the fact that this is a significant area, which is why we are instituting these reforms to corporate transparency, but for the reasons I have outlined to the House on various amendments, I urge that noble Lords consider not pressing their amendments.

Constitutional Reform

Debate between Lord Butler of Brockwell and Lord True

Monday 21st March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

Yes, my Lords, I think your Lordships’ Constitution Committee makes outstanding contributions to all thinking on constitutional matters. As I indicated in my previous answer, we are seeking approaches to always create good relations—as far as we can—between the different Administrations of these islands. That means good will, and every party has to show that good will.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords, the measures that the Minister referred to were for the most part unilateral initiatives on the part of the Government. What has happened to the proposal in the Conservative Party manifesto—and of other parties—for a commission on the constitution, which would involve much wider consultation?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I have indicated previously to your Lordships’ House that the Government are determined to take the various aspects of constitutional consideration forward; I gave the House examples of the different workstreams. I simply do not agree with the noble Lord that there is not cross-party agreement on certain things. For example, the removal of the Fixed-term Parliaments Act was agreed across the House and the principle of it was subject to very extensive consultation and examination.

Downing Street Parties: Police Investigation

Debate between Lord Butler of Brockwell and Lord True

Tuesday 25th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

No, my Lord.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords, could the Minister give us a little more precise guidance about the effect of these developments today on the timing of Sue Gray’s report? Can that report still be expected within the next few days?

[Lord True (Con)]

Most noble Lords will understand why I am not going to speculate on the timing of the progress of either investigation. I have told the House that aspects of the Cabinet Office investigation will continue. Obviously, there is an independent police investigation. I am sure the noble Lord, with his great experience and great service to the country, will understand that those two inquiries must be allowed to run their course.

Security of Ministers’ Offices and Communications

Debate between Lord Butler of Brockwell and Lord True

Tuesday 29th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I cannot comment on the circumstances. The Department of Health inquiry, I would imagine, would look into all these matters, including who was and should be responsible for making the Secretary of State aware, if he was not aware, of this device.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords, the use by Ministers of private means of communication is dangerous on all sorts of grounds, and Ministers need good advice about that. Following on from the question of the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, is there a review of ministerial private use of the internet, so that departments can identify which parts of such correspondence are subject to FOI so that they can deal with FOI requests?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, there is guidance. Obviously, guidance, as the noble Lord with his great experience will know, is reviewed from time to time. That is also the case in relation to FOI, on which I have already commented. The Cabinet Office responded to 92% of FOI requests within 20 working days. As to the boundaries, Ministers are also parliamentarians—MPs and Peers. There are distinctions between official classified information and the day-to-day management of a Minister’s life. One needs to be aware in office of those barriers and those responsibilities. I take note of what the noble Lord has said.

Ministerial Code

Debate between Lord Butler of Brockwell and Lord True

Tuesday 24th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

Well, my Lords, my noble friend always asks his questions in a direct manner. I will not comment on any individual case, but it is certainly true that being at the top of a major department is a challenging role for Ministers and senior civil servants alike—and, frankly, I have not known many snowflakes in either of those capacities.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords, it would have been good if the Minister had condemned the terms of the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Howard. Under this Prime Minister, the conduct of the Government and their Ministers has been criticised by the Supreme Court, the National Audit Office in relation to their conduct of procurement, the Commissioner for Public Appointments, the chair of the Committee on Standards in Public Life and the Prime Minister’s independent adviser on ministerial conduct. Do the Government take these criticisms seriously? If so, what proposals do they have to restore confidence in the probity of public life?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I do not agree that confidence in the probity of public life, as the noble Lord puts it, is destroyed. The Government take all criticism and comment seriously and reflect on all comment, positive and negative. That is the wise thing to do, and I am sure the Government will continue to do it.

Ministerial Code: Breaches

Debate between Lord Butler of Brockwell and Lord True

Monday 2nd March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord True]

No, my Lords, the allegation of a hitlist is false and has been denied. All in this House would agree that good government depends on all the elements of a ministry and a Government working well together. I had the privilege of working in the Civil Service as a special adviser in the past and I know that to be the case. This Government wholly respect the role of the Civil Service; they need the Civil Service to be free to give robust advice and there needs to be proper respect between all arms of government decision-making.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords, will the noble Lord clear up one point that was a little ambiguous in his answer to the Leader of the Opposition? I welcome the fact that, in line with the Ministerial Code, the Prime Minister has asked the Cabinet Office to establish the facts—that is clearly very important—but in answering the Leader of the Opposition, the noble Lord said that the Cabinet Office has been asked to inquire whether the Home Secretary has breached the code. However, there are also allegations that the code was breached when Ms Patel was in the Department for Employment and in DfID. Can he assure us that the inquiry will be wide-ranging and will cover that full range of complaints?

[Lord True]

My Lords, I used the term “Home Secretary” because the person engaged is Home Secretary, but where allegations of breach of the Ministerial Code has been made against a Minister, those allegations, from wherever, will be investigated.

Council Tax Valuation Bands Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Butler of Brockwell and Lord True

Friday 22nd April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord True for his work on, and engagement with, this Bill. He has brought to the debate his customary passion and commitment. I am sure that everyone agrees with me that this House benefits from his experience as a council leader and the expertise which he brings to the subject.

I will not repeat all the points made by my noble friend Lady Williams at Second Reading. However, the Government have a firm commitment to keep council tax low for taxpayers, which we have successfully delivered and continue to deliver. I express my reservations that either with or without this amendment, the Bill would not support that aim.

My noble friend Lord True and the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, raised this matter and I agree with them that operating two parallel systems for council tax valuations would risk introducing new costs and confusion into the system. I note that my noble friend Lord Marlesford himself acknowledged that a new system should be administratively easy. In the protracted transition period during which these systems would need to operate, residents could face dramatically different council tax bills, based on the arbitrary distinction of when their home was last sold. The Government believe that it is fairer, as well as simpler, to band properties in a single list on the basis of a common date.

Furthermore, the present system of council tax provides stability and certainty for households, helping them to manage their finances. It is well understood, which is evidenced by the very high collection rate of 97%. Ultimately, people know that they will be charged on the same consistent basis as their neighbours. I should add that council tax in England has fallen by 9% in real terms since 2010-11. The Government see no need to introduce turbulence and uncertainty into households’ financial management by changing the council tax bands. This uncertainty about council tax bills could generate further risk to the Government’s aims to see 1 million new homes built in England over this Parliament.

I note and appreciate the remarks made by my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern, who alluded to some interesting experiences in Scotland. In particular, he suggested the introduction of a new band at the top. But he also noted, in his informed contribution, that many properties in the higher bands are occupied by cash-poor households. That, in a nutshell, is the issue and the Government have no plans to introduce a new band.

My noble friend Lord Skelmersdale raised the issue of whether a property has to be registered at the Land Registry. It is indeed the case that properties purchased before 1990 might not be registered, so he makes a valid point.

The present system gives taxpayers confidence and stability. It is widely understood and payment rates are high. I hope that noble Lords will understand that, for those reasons, the Government cannot support the Bill.

[Lord True]

My Lords, I am grateful to those who have spoken and to my noble friend on the Front Bench for the kind things that he said. They are entirely unjustified: I can assure him that there are many, many people—leaders and former leaders of local authorities—who have far greater expertise than me. We heard from one of them, the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, with whose intervention I very much agreed. His extremely pertinent point about disguised ownership was touched on also by my noble friend Lord Cormack. The massive capital inflows to the country are an issue and we heard, in the Chancellor’s recent forecast, the expectation of the scale of future inflows of individuals and capital that are distorting the market. Attempts are being made to chase, capture and tax that money, but it is difficult. This matter might need to be examined but it is not necessarily a matter for this Bill. Neither is it necessarily a matter that would defeat the Bill, but it is an interesting, separate point of detail.

I was grateful for what the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, said, not least because he agreed with me in detail while making a point on substance. One difficulty with taking the value of a property at a particular time is that it is a snapshot. The current council tax system, albeit based on 1991 values, has benefits. There is a separate argument about revaluation, and I said at the outset that this debate is about my noble friend’s Bill, not about whether we should have higher bands. My noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern made a very important intervention on that. A property changing hands is a snapshot of its value at a time, whereas the council tax basis is an assessment of relative values across the country. Although there will be anomalies in it, it is broadly—and certainly at the time it was introduced it was intended to be—fair and accurate.

I said in my opening remarks that my noble friend Lord Marlesford brought forward an interesting point and the noble Lord, Lord Butler, supported him. I understand the logic of this. But if you just take individual snapshot values you will get the variations that the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, referred to, which will be frozen in two parallel bands. And it will not reflect the fact of market change.

Relatively, all houses in an area will go up and down with the market. There will be variations. But let us say that there is a property crash, which is quite possible with some of the excessive values we have now. Under my noble friend’s scheme, if you have scrimped and saved to buy a house worth £525,000 and the market goes down, you will find yourself paying a council tax which is twice that paid by people who paid £495,000. If it is on the excessive value that has been charged before, what does the person do when the value goes down and they find themselves paying twice as much as their neighbours who have just bought the house next door?

[Lord Butler of Brockwell]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. I see the anomaly that he refers to. However, is it not the case that the person who bought the house before the value crashed did so with their eyes open? They knew what their tax liability would be. Is it not fair that that liability is maintained, even though the value of the property may have changed?

[Lord True]

The noble Lord makes a perfectly reasonable point. However, although you can appeal to the valuation tribunal on the valuation of the house, there is a risk that there would then be a cry that the value was no longer fair. Revaluations and appeals on business rates can sometimes take years to determine. I was pointing out that there are potential anomalies and the noble Lord makes a perfectly reasonable point. However, there is a risk of creating new industries and new administrative costs.

I should not, in this response to the debate, have gone into a new detailed point. I apologise to the Committee.