House of Lords: Prayers

Debate between Lord Brabazon of Tara and Lord St John of Fawsley

Thursday 31st March 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Chairman of Committees]

I am sure that the right reverend Prelate is right. If there are further recommendations for changes to the Prayers used, I would be happy to look at them.

[Lord St John of Fawsley]

Does the Chairman of Committees agree that he has expressed the view of most Members of the House, though not all? I agree with him entirely that we must not interfere with the rights of the Lords Spiritual. At the same time, I believe in the idea behind this Question. We can best meet it by respectfully and humbly offering advice to the right reverend Prelates either in private or in public. Is he aware that I have put down a Question for Short Debate which contains the suggestion that we have a debate on the ecumenical movement between different churches and faiths? May I suggest that we have it in the dinner hour as the noble Lord would then be in peril of hearing me speak, which would get him out of purgatory?

[The Chairman of Committees]

The noble Lord makes some interesting points, but I am not sure that any of them require an answer from me.

London Local Authorities and Transport for London (No. 2) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Brabazon of Tara and Lord St John of Fawsley

Monday 28th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord St John of Fawsley]

It is a great relief to support my noble friend on this issue, having voted for justice for young criminals, not without some experience of that matter. Since the Leader of the Opposition has made a habit of talking about himself, I will talk a little about myself, but not too much. The first social duty that I undertook was that of a prison visitor when I was my noble friend’s age—18. I have been Minister for Higher Education and I was concerned about the welfare of young criminals. I was equally concerned about protecting the innocent victims of crime. That is why I was moved to pay a tribute to the police this afternoon. I will not go into all that again; I made my point and I am extremely glad that I did. However, it is wonderful that my noble friend shows such persistence. That is what you need in politics; you have to keep going and keep at it. I hope that my noble friend Lord Steel will take the same line with his Bill. He should get on with it, not give it up. In the end, if you persist you will get somewhere but if you give things up you will not. My noble friend deserves every support and congratulation on the way in which he has persevered with this Bill, as does the noble Lord opposite who played such a distinguished part in the committee.

I have an interest to declare as when I left government because of the unemployment figures my noble friend was instrumental in my securing my next appointment. I had the honour to be appointed chairman of the Royal Fine Art Commission, a post which I held for 15 years until the whole of the commission was abolished by fax. Not even the Vatican in its worst days would behave in such a way. When the Orthodox Church got rid of the Orthodox Archbishop of London, it did so by fax. However, it provided a charge: namely, that he coveted thrones.

[The Chairman of Committees (Lord Brabazon of Tara)]

My Lords, I wonder, as the person responsible for the conduct of Private Bills in this House, whether I may bring the House to order. We are dealing with three amendments moved or spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, at Third Reading. We are not dealing with the Second Reading of the Bill or with other issues, such as those that my noble friend Lord St John has just raised. We are considering three amendments that deal with the recovery of street cleansing expenditure—nothing else.

[Lord St John of Fawsley]

My noble friend the Chairman of Committees is quite right. I was following the bad example of the Leader of the Opposition. One should never talk about oneself. It is a subject that is of interest only to oneself and no one else. I merely wanted to congratulate my noble friend on his persistence in proceeding with the Bill. Here, I make just one point; it is very important that Select Committee reports are speedily implemented. I heard the Select Committee being attacked because of its report. I answered on the millions of pounds spent by the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank, on the urban nonsense of turning us all into Dutch flat dwellers in five words that are all that needs to be said on that issue—and I shall then sit down. Those words are: “English people love their gardens”. That is it.