European Union (Definition of Treaties) (Association Agreement) (Georgia) Order 2015

Debate between Lord Bowness and Baroness Ludford

Thursday 26th February 2015 Grand Committee

[Lord Bowness (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her clear explanation of the orders, and I am sure that we are all grateful to her for bringing us up to date on the situation in Ukraine. I should say at the outset that I support the orders and the fact that the European Union has entered into these association agreements with Ukraine, Moldova and Georgia.

These countries have two things in common: first, they are victims of territorial disputes and, secondly, all have sought a European and westward-looking future. Ukraine is, of course, in the forefront of the news today, and the dispute over Crimea and part of eastern Ukraine sadly seems likely to be added to the list of frozen conflicts, joining those in South Ossetia, Abkhazia in Georgia, and Transnistria in Moldova.

I have just come back from the meeting of the OSCE Parliamentary Assembly, where discussion about the situation in Ukraine dominated proceedings. However, deep concerns were also expressed about Russia’s intentions in respect of Moldova and Georgia—and the Baltic states, which are outside the area we are discussing. We must do everything we can to anticipate Russian intentions towards these states and not allow the dissident parts to provide the excuse for Russia to undermine the rest of the country seeking a different, European and democratic future. We have already seen Armenia turn its face against an association agreement.

This afternoon is not the place to go into these situations in detail but, while I entirely agree that Russia should not have a veto over the future of any sovereign state, it is important that the position of the European Union and our Government is clear—namely, that although the agreements are a welcome step to inclusion of these countries in Europe, there can be no question of accession to the European Union while these territorial disputes exist. Unless we make that clear, we stand the risk of dashing the hopes of many citizens in those countries, and that can lead only to disillusionment with the European Union and the West in general.

Nevertheless, we should adopt the agreements with enthusiasm and offer as much assistance and economic help as possible to buttress the sometimes fragile democracies that exist in these countries. The agreements are with each of the three countries and the Governments of those countries do not recognise the independence of or the occupation of part of their respective states. It may be an academic point, but the agreements make no reference to these facts. My noble friend referred to businesses in Transnistria; are we quite satisfied that the benefits of these agreements cannot be claimed by businesses— which are no doubt very inventive as to where goods are produced and subsequently exported from—which are in fact based in these disputed territories? If that is considered to be too fanciful, are we in any circumstances under the agreements able to differentiate between the three sovereign states and their Governments and the areas over which they have no control and are in dispute?

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, I also thank my noble friend the Minister for her helpful introduction and explanation of the situation. I spent many years making EU law, but perhaps not so much time implementing it, and therefore I am not familiar with this process. Before moving on to other things, perhaps I could ask about the draft Explanatory Memorandum. It explains that one of the effects of the order, declaring that the agreement is to be regarded as an EU treaty under the ECA 1972, is that certain rights and obligations under the agreement automatically become law in the United Kingdom and then subordinate legislation can be made to give effect to the provisions of the agreement. I am not clear which rights and obligations automatically become law. It may be that the noble Baroness can take me aside at some point and explain how all this works, and that will clear my confusion.

My more general point is to strongly welcome these association agreements. I agree with everything the noble Baroness has said about the prospect of not only greater prosperity for the citizens of these three countries, but also greater security for the European Union, and I agree that the prospect of better energy security is a factor in that discussion.

I take the point made by the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, about the role of the Council of Europe. It is important that the roles of the EU and the Council of Europe should be complementary. It is fair to say that the EU has much greater resources than the Council of Europe; we know that the Council is always stretched for money, partly because its member states do not give it enough. They should not trip over each other. At one point there was a tendency for the EU to sort of push aside the Council of Europe, which is not a clever idea. The EU needs to come in as a complementary body, and of course it has another role to play in terms of the economic and trade relationship. However, for the rule of law, fighting corruption and an independent judiciary, obviously we have the whole Strasbourg package—aquis, if you like—and that is essentially what the EU wants to implement. There should not be any institutional jealousy between the two organisations. Sometimes during my time as a Member of the European Parliament, there was evidence of a bit of that. After all, the EU pinched the flag of the Council of Europe. However, it is important that the two should work together so as to add value to each other.

I welcome what the Minister said about the provisions on the rule of law and the fight against corruption which have been in force since last November. I should like to stress the importance of that. If we look at the history of countries acceding to the EU, although I know that this is not about accession, it is arguable that not enough was done in these areas before they were admitted to the European Union and there have been continuing problems in the existing member states. More must be done. We really need to front-load this issue. You cannot have a flourishing economy or property rights without an independent judiciary. It is almost more important even than democracy, in a sense. Certainly, some drew that conclusion from the western Balkans. You cannot have economic reform, as I say, without a strong independent judicial system.

I agree with the Minister that, while we must not overstate it, these association agreements have the potential to have a beneficial effect on the prospect of dealing with the conflicts because the people in the breakaway regions would be able to see the benefits of participating in a deep relationship with the EU and would want a slice of the action. But the association agreements of themselves are not going to solve the conflicts.

I welcome what the Minister had to say in going slightly outside the scope of these orders to update us on the situation as regards Ukraine. In that context, I am extremely shocked to read today that the President of the Republic of Cyprus, Mr Anastasiades, on a visit to Moscow, has formalised an agreement for Russian warships to use Cypriot military bases and has also spoken against EU policy on Ukraine. We know that there is press commentary on the difficulty of keeping together a common EU policy on sanctions and the prospect of tightening sanctions on Russia. There were worries about Greece. There have been worries about Hungary, of course, which I mentioned in the House the other day. Mr Orban hosted President Putin the other day. I personally find this the most extraordinary disloyalty by EU member states towards a common EU policy on Russia. I hope that some very candid words are being shared around the European Council table with some of our member states.

I know we have just a short procedure here so I will not go on. These association agreements are extremely welcome. Perhaps from smaller acorns big things will grow. One day, perhaps, one or more of these countries will be eligible to join the European Union. This is not the time and there is no guarantee of that. Personally, I hope that it might be possible for at least some of them and this at least leaves the door open. But as the Minister said, it is their sovereign choice what relationship they want with the EU. All parties in the UK have always supported the process of enlargement and the European Neighbourhood Policy, because it is not just for benefit of those countries; it is for our security.