Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Lord Crickhowell

Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Wednesday 14th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Crickhowell (Con)]

My Lords, as for expressing thanks and congratulations, may I, as the first president of Cardiff University, add to those thanks and congratulations from these Benches?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have participated in the debate on the second group of amendments and I particularly thank the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, for reminding me that I had not thanked the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, for his very kind comments about the drafting. Obviously they will have been picked up by the people who were responsible for that drafting, as will be the case for the drafting of these amendments.

I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Morgan, who has very distinguished service in the education sector in Wales, and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, for their comments. I thank my noble friend Lord Crickhowell for his kind comments, too.

On the specific point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, in relation to Amendment 8 in this group about the status of the Open University, I have looked at this quickly, since it has been raised. I take the point that she made. I would like to take it away and have a look at it. It is open to us to do something in this regard on the second day of Report, as I think it is within the scope of the list of reserved and devolved bodies, and, indeed, mixed-function bodies, which this may well be. Therefore, I will, if I may, take that away without prejudice and have a look at it to see whether we should bring something back on the second day of Report. With that undertaking, I commend the government amendments in this group.

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[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for what has certainly been an impassioned debate on an area that I agree deserves passion. I will try to deal with the various issues that have been raised. I turn first to the package of provisions raised by my noble friend Lord Crickhowell in relation to his proposals for fisheries and recreation to be brought within the definition of water-related functions in Section 58 of the Government of Wales Act as amended. I obviously listen very carefully to everything that my noble friend says on any subject, but particularly in this area, where I know he has great expertise. I will look carefully again at this area and write to him. But I return to the basic point as I see it, which is that fisheries and recreation are already devolved matters, so there is no issue in relation to intervention in those areas. To use his analogy, the ingredients of the cake have already been passed to the Welsh Government. But I will take another look at it and write to the noble Lord.

[Lord Crickhowell]

The only thing that worries me about that is that they may have been passed to the Welsh Government when the fish are in Wales, but fish pass up and down the border, in and out of England and Wales, and affect both England and Wales—so there is an issue about cross-border arrangements.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, as I said, I will look at the issue, but my understanding is that if the fishing is taking place in England it will be a matter for England and if in Wales it will be a matter for Wales—but I will take a more detailed look at that and write to my noble friend and other noble Lords who have participated in the debate.

I turn now to the serious issue about the protocol and Tryweryn. I have said on more than one occasion—I feel that I have said this so often—that Tryweryn is not affected by this legislation. Tryweryn could not happen now. The power in relation to reservoirs in every respect is already with the National Assembly for Wales. I could not have been clearer on that. I understand the importance of the issue as part of our folklore, but it is unaffected by this legislation. One would not expect this legislation to claim to be doing things that it is not doing. That is the basic point—although I understand the passion in relation to this area. I give that reassurance to the noble Lords, Lord Wigley, Lord Thomas, Lord Elystan-Morgan and Lord Morgan. Tryweryn cannot happen—or if it does, it is a matter for the National Assembly for Wales.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Lord Crickhowell

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 7th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, this was precisely the point that I was dealing with. As I said, I will get a note round about how the discussion is going on how the policy will be rolled out in terms of the amount of money that will be given to the devolved Administrations. The discussion will go on at that level on how that is being sorted out. As I understand it, the basis on which the policy is rolled out is that the place of employment will be where the policy applies. If a business is in Wales it will be a matter for the Welsh Government to decide a policy which is relevant to it. All the Administrations will want to bear in mind businesses which are on both sides of the border and ensure that there is some consistency in approach. However, that is a matter for them.

Based on my assurances that I will write to noble Lords on how the discussion is going now and that it is a matter for the devolved Administrations to decide the relevant policy—

[Lord Crickhowell (Con)]

My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt. It is, of course, satisfactory that the Minister will write to noble Lords, but this is yet another example of where discussions have been going on for some time since the Bill passed in another place and yet the up-to-date position on them has not been presented to this Committee. Like the noble Lord, Lord Deben, who made the point in an earlier sitting, I do think this is very unsatisfactory. We really should be updated in adequate time on all these discussions and not told that we will be given the information at some stage, perhaps before Report.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I am not quite sure what my noble friend wants me to say, other than that, as I have just said, I will endeavour to ensure that noble Lords will have the information that is being requested ahead of Report. With that, I ask the noble Lords to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

No, it does not. Rather the reverse, it showed that opinion in Wales had changed much more than people thought. The noble Lord put a fair question to me: whether I thought that opinion had changed in Wales such that we did not need a referendum. I hope I have given a very fair answer. It is a truthful one—I think opinion in Wales has changed to that degree.

Arguments were put on various issues in relation to this, not least in the area of borrowing. I agree again that, to have significant borrowing powers, there has to be a separate stream of revenue. This would present a separate stream of revenue, and even if the income tax rates were retained exactly as they are in England, it would give that separate rate of revenue. So, there is that as well. I know that we are coming on to a subsequent amendment on this issue. In view of the fact that I do not believe that this change is necessary and the strength of opinion from noble Lords around the Chamber, I urge the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Crickhowell]

On a point of detail, it was suggested that there was a Welsh Conservative manifesto commitment. I have taken the trouble during the debate to read the Welsh Conservative manifesto, which I confess I had never read before, and there is no such commitment.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I am most grateful for that clarification. I do not think I had read it either. It is always useful to hear these things from someone who speaks with authority, and I thank my noble friend very much. Of course, I am not urging noble Lords to withdraw the amendment; I am just urging that the clause stand part of the Bill.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Lord Crickhowell

Monday 7th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I apologise for being blindsided on the government amendments in this group but perhaps I may turn to them first before answering the points raised by noble Lords.

Through the government amendments we will give the Welsh Ministers new powers and more flexibility to make grants or payments to encourage freight modal shift from road to water. The Welsh Ministers are already able under Section 272 of the Transport Act 2000 to make grants or other payments for carriage of freight on inland waterways where this is wholly within Wales, but neither the Secretary of State nor the Welsh Ministers are able to award a grant for a cross-border inland waterway service. This relates to the porous nature of the water, canals and so on to which I referred earlier. Two separate grants would be needed—one for the section of waterway in England and the other for the section of waterway in Wales. The amendment will enable a single grant to be made by either or both the Secretary of State or the Welsh Ministers for a cross-border service on inland waterways. I hope noble Lords will acknowledge that that is very sensible. This already happens for rail in the mode shift revenue support scheme, which is a scheme for rail and inland waterways.

The amendment would also give the Welsh Ministers new powers to award grants or other payments under Section 272 of the Transport Act 2000 for freight services by sea to, from or within Wales. At present only the Secretary of State is able to do so. Although the waterborne freight grant scheme is a Great Britain-wide scheme, the Welsh Ministers do not currently have the same powers as the Scottish Government to award grants under it. The amendment will put that right.

Joint and concurrent powers will offer the flexibility to make awards for cross-border freight services by inland waterway and sea. They also allow for the possibility that there could be circumstances in which the Secretary of State might wish to provide support for services to or from a reserved trust port in Wales and another port in Wales.

Government Amendments 83C, 83D and 107B transfer further powers to the Welsh Ministers to allow them to make loans to harbour authorities under the Harbours (Loans) Act 1972 and the Harbours Act 1964. They enable the Welsh Ministers to make the loans out of the Welsh Consolidated Fund and they apply requirements for the loan accounts to be certified by the Auditor-General for Wales and laid before the Welsh Assembly. The effect of the amendments is to ensure that in relation to harbours wholly in Wales, other than reserved trust ports, the Welsh Ministers can fully exercise the loan-making functions currently conferred on the Secretary of State, subject to equivalent controls.

The Bill already provides for the Welsh Ministers to make loans under Section 11 of the Harbours Act 1964 to harbour authorities for works to harbours wholly in Wales, other than reserved trust ports. The first amendment will also allow Welsh Ministers to make loans to these harbour authorities to pay off capital debts, temporary loans and overdrafts as provided for by the Harbours (Loans) Act 1972.

The second amendment inserts new provisions into Section 43 of the Harbours Act 1964 which supplement the transfer of loan-making powers under the Harbours Act 1964 and the Harbours (Loans) Act 1972. These comprise giving the Welsh Ministers the power to set the repayment terms of any loans made; enabling the issue to the Welsh Ministers of sums to make the loans from the Welsh Consolidated Fund; requiring that all loan repayments must be paid into the Welsh Consolidated Fund; and requiring the Welsh Ministers to prepare annual accounts in respect of loans issued to and repaid by harbour authorities and the Auditor-General for Wales to certify and report on the accounts of the Welsh Assembly.

The noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, has tabled a number of amendments which would remove reservations for reserved trust ports from the Bill and indicated her intention to oppose that Clause 32 stand part of the Bill, which would remove the definition of a reserved trust port. Amendments 61 to 64 seek to remove reservations for and other references to reserved trust ports from Schedule 1, which reserves legislative competence for these ports. Amendments 84 and 86 to 95 seek to remove reservations for and other references to reserved trust ports from Clauses 29, 30 and 33, dealing with the transfer of the executive functions to Welsh Ministers. Clause 32 does not contain any reservations but defines the term “reserved trust port”, and its removal from the Bill would be consequential upon the amendments The Government believe that the reservations for reserved trust ports are an essential element of the Bill and therefore cannot support the amendments of the noble Baroness.

However, in the light of the comments made—particularly by my noble friend Lord Crickhowell, who obviously is well acquainted with the trust port—but without any promises, I will have another look at this issue. The point of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, that we should not be slavishly mirroring Scotland, is well made. We have to look at the issues specifically on the basis of the nature of Wales. It is right that this would be the only port caught within the definition by some margin—all the other ports are much smaller. Some noble Lords have said that this is just replicating the current position but that is not true because other trust ports would be transferred under the proposals in the Bill.

It is right that this is significant in relation to LNG—I have got 63% but we will not argue about 1%—and gas. It was also at one stage suggested by the current First Minister as a base for the nuclear fleet. The Government are not considering that but it gives an indication of the important strategic role played by Milford Haven. It is a deep water port of unique significance. As I say, I will have another look at the issue but without making a promise on the conclusion.

[Lord Crickhowell]

Perhaps I may clarify something. I entirely accept and understand the strategic argument but perhaps I should explain why I slightly question the aspect of safety. To give an example, the old Esso jetty, which is a mile long, stretches right across the entrance to the port into the area where all gas tankers entering the port have to pass. It is one of the most exposed parts of the port because it is close to the mouth of Milford Haven. If an accident was to happen, for example, by a gas tanker being blown on to the end of the Esso jetty—and collisions have occurred in the past with fishing vessels hitting the jetty—and an explosion occurred, it would devastate the towns and the oil refinery on the south bank and the town of Milford Haven on the north bank. It is therefore a matter of considerable interest to the Government of Wales on grounds of safety and its possible effect on inhabitants. It is an issue that needs to be considered because there is probably a case for the Government of Wales to at least be involved in some way in considering the possible consequences on the population around the haven if an accident were to occur.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank my noble friend for that intervention. He is absolutely right about the need for partnership working between the Government in Wales and the Government at Westminster—as happened in the past, I think he would acknowledge, in relation to disasters that happened in the port. As I said, I have also been involved with the port of Milford Haven through the enterprise zone. It is my understanding that there is co-operation with the Welsh Government at the moment, but there is certainly consultation on certain matters on the part of the port with the Government. It is, of course, important that they are fully engaged. As I have said, I will go and look at it, but without making any promises.

Amendment 98 would require the Secretary of State to consult with Welsh Ministers while setting the strategic priorities relating to the Secretary of State’s delivery, in Wales, of functions under two pieces of primary legislation: the Coastguard Act 1925 and the Merchant Shipping Act 1995. These functions are all reserved matters, exercisable by the Secretary of State for Transport, and are in practice delivered in the United Kingdom by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, an executive agency of the Department for Transport.

The strategic priorities involved would cover decisions over subject areas such as the 24-hour search and rescue helicopter service provided by the coastguard, and the promotion of seafarer health and safety standards. “Strategic priorities” does not cover operational activities and incident response decisions, which remain the responsibility of the chief executive of the Maritime and Coastguard Agency. Such consultation would normally be effected through administrative arrangements. However, I recognise that the noble Baroness’s amendment mirrors the action taken by the Government through the Scotland Act 2016. Despite having said we will not slavishly mirror things, I will look at that and reflect on the issues raised by the noble Baroness in the amendment. In the light of that, I ask that she does not press her amendments in this group.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Lord Crickhowell

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 7th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, there is a commercial opportunity there. I commend the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, for her good idea.

[Lord Crickhowell]

I am sorry to intervene again, but I thought I was being pretty stupid at a late hour at night when I asked what subsection (5) meant. When a leading Welsh lawyer got up and asked exactly the same question, I decided that perhaps I was not quite as stupid as I thought. I would love to know what it actually means.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I believe it means—and I will write to noble Lords if I am incorrect in this, as I may be—that, in determining what is necessary for the purposes of subsection (3), which relates to the test of ancillary and necessary, you cannot allege that it is necessary that the law is passed unless it is necessary that it is an Assembly law. It cannot be necessary for another legislative body. I think that is what it means. If I am wrong, I will write to the noble Lord and copy the letter to other noble Lords. I may be wrong.

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[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, turning to the next group of amendments, I am pleased to speak, first, to government Amendment 47A, which was tabled as a result of discussions with the Welsh Government.

Paragraph 6(5) of new Schedule 7A provides for an exception from the reservation for courts and civil and criminal proceedings as part of the single legal jurisdiction of England and Wales. The exception is for the,

“provision of advisory and support services in respect of family proceedings in which the welfare of children ordinarily resident in Wales is or may be in question”,

so that the provision of such services is not reserved by paragraph 6(1). This exception was intended to reflect the existing exception for what may be described as the functions of CAFCASS Cymru.

The Welsh Government have argued—in our view with some force—that the wording of the exception is too broad and does not sufficiently closely reflect the Assembly’s current competence in respect of CAFCASS Cymru. Amendment 47A seeks to insert into paragraph 6(5) modified wording which, I understand, the Welsh Government support.

Government Amendment 47B would remove sub-paragraph (2) from the defence reservation. It would have no effect on the substance of the defence reservation but it would remove a tautology. Removing this sub-paragraph would not change the powers that Welsh Ministers have under the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 to appoint marine enforcement officers, who then enforce legislation in relation to sea fishing; nor would it change the automatic appointment of certain members of Her Majesty’s Armed Forces as marine enforcement officers under the same Act. I am pleased to say that UK Government and Welsh Government officials have worked together closely to come to the conclusion that this sub-paragraph should be removed.

Government Amendment 52A is a technical amendment. It seeks to provide clarity in relation to Section C2 in new Schedule 7A by providing a definition of “business association”. There is already such a definition in Section C1, but interpretation provisions in the schedule cannot be read across to apply to other sections.

Government Amendments 53A and 53C would make minor adjustments to the consumer protection and product standards reservations to ensure that the Assembly’s competence in these areas remained unaltered from the current position.

Amendment 48, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, proposes the devolution of policing. As the noble Lord will know, the Government have been clear that, in the absence of a consensus around the Silk commission’s proposals in this area, policing is not being devolved. We believe that the current England and Wales arrangements for policing work well, and the proponents of devolution have failed to adequately address some of the risks that would arise if these arrangements were disrupted.

[Lord Crickhowell]

On this very point, at Second Reading I asked the Minister to explain why it appeared that powers over policing were being given to some English regions while they were not being given to the Welsh Government. I am entirely in favour of a general reservation and I would simply like an explanation of that apparent difference.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I shall deal with that briefly before I resume. I recall my noble friend raising this at Second Reading and I will write to him. The devolved arrangements that I think he is referring to in relation to some of the city regions in the United Kingdom, specifically in England, do not involve devolution in the way that it is being talked about here. They do not establish separate lines of authority within national boundaries, for example. I will write to him with details on that but I think that the form of devolution is rather different in that respect.

There are factors that I think I should touch upon in relation to why policing is being retained within the England and Wales system under the Bill. First, policing is inextricably linked with the criminal justice system. It is a key component. The criminal justice system’s priorities and ways of operating have a direct impact on other parts of the criminal justice system and vice versa. This can be seen, for example, through quality of evidence gathering and the mutual role played in crime prevention and reducing reoffending. Secondly, existing governance and partnership arrangements provide a significant level of integration and autonomy. The establishment of police and crime commissioners has already devolved policing to the local level. Thirdly, there would be cost and complexity in separating out the existing national structures and arrangements. Fourthly—although admittedly this is a factor that is more easily accommodated—police forces in England and Wales are responsible for tackling a range of crimes and other threats that go beyond the boundaries of a single police force.

At the national level, the strategic policing requirement which applies to police forces in England and Wales sets out the threats which are considered of particular national significance. These include terrorism, organised crime, public disorder, civil emergencies, cyberattacks and child sexual abuse. These threats can require a co-ordinated or aggregated response in which resources are brought together from a number of police forces. Devolution could lead to a weakening of both the regional and national response to these serious crimes. In short, the devolution of policing could lead to a disjointed criminal justice system, adding costs for both the people of Wales and the rest of the United Kingdom.

Amendment 49 would remove the reservation in relation to anti-social behaviour. This would remove our ability to legislate to prevent and address anti-social behaviour through coercive methods such as the tools and powers introduced by the 2014 Act. The subject matter in the Act is intended to reserve coercive responses to anti-social behaviour generally, whatever its form, rather than the detail of the specific orders contained in the Act. The whole approach to anti-social behaviour set out in the Act is intended to encourage the police, councils and other partners to work together to deal with problems quickly. The legislation provides local agencies with a range of different powers and measures and it is for front-line professionals to develop jointly solutions which address the causes of the behaviour and protect victims and communities.

I will listen carefully to the arguments made in this debate. The noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, and the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, seek through Amendment 50 to devolve responsibility to the Assembly for private security. I appreciate the view that private security should be a devolved rather than a reserved matter. I understand those who question why bouncers in, say, Merthyr, Swansea or anywhere else in Wales should be regulated on an England and Wales basis but there are sound reasons why private security is a reserved matter.

First, the security industry is regulated in England and Wales by the Security Industry Authority, an effective regulator which provides consistent standards across borders. In an inherently mobile industry it promotes consistency, maturity and professionalism through, for example, the approved contractor scheme. The licensing regime operated by the authority provides reassurance that those who work in the private security industry have the appropriate qualifications and training and have been subject to rigorous criminal records checks.

Secondly, there are close links between private security and the police, particularly in relation to the night-time economy. The Security Industry Authority has an investigative arm which, in co-operation with the police and other government bodies, tackles criminality in the private security sector, including organised crime. All Security Industry Authority-approved qualifications also include counterterrorism awareness, for example, in looking out for hostile reconnaissance, and the industry is playing an increasingly important role in being the eyes and ears to potential terrorist threats. These current arrangements work well.

Amendment 51 seeks to remove the reservation for the sale and supply of alcohol and the provision of entertainment and late night refreshment. These activities are regulated under the Licensing Act 2003 and the proposed paragraphs preserve the current devolution settlement in respect of all matters covered by that Act. Regulated entertainment includes live and recorded music, plays, films, indoor sporting events, boxing, wrestling and dance performances.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Lord Crickhowell

Tuesday 11th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Crickhowell]

I am grateful to my noble friend for giving way. I was—

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

Perhaps I could remind the House that, after the Minister has spoken, it is only the mover of the amendment who can speak.