Yorkshire: Devolution

Debate between Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Baroness Warsi

Tuesday 12th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I find myself in total agreement with the noble Lord. I agree that it makes perfect sense for the Sheffield City Region authority to progress. I understand that it is due to meet a week on Thursday to look at this matter; I very much hope that it processes the issue and moves forward because £900 million over a 30-year period is attached to the Sheffield City Region project. I hope it goes ahead and I hope that other parts of Yorkshire follow, in the way I suggested to the noble Lord, Lord Wallace.

[Baroness Warsi (Con)]

My Lords, I echo the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Wallace. There is a lot of cross-party agreement on the One Yorkshire deal at a local level; it is supported by the CBI, the Federation of Small Businesses and the TUC. However, is my noble friend concerned that a balkanisation approach in Yorkshire may result in certain parts of that region being left behind? Does he agree that there may be some merit in considering a much broader One Yorkshire deal?

Islamophobia

Debate between Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Baroness Warsi

Thursday 20th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

The noble Lord raises an interesting point, but the project I was just talking about, schools linking, does that for all faiths. I recently visited schools in both Luton and Blackburn. One is in a predominantly white area of the town, or has predominantly white pupils, while another has pupils of different religions and races. It has had a beneficial effect on all religions and races, including on pupils in an essentially Christian-based, white school. I was going on to say that the children positively look forward to meetings between the two schools after they have had one or two. It is important to get in early in people’s lives to try to combat discrimination and prejudice. People are not born with prejudice and discrimination—it is something that grows. I hope that linking schools in that way will have benefits for older family members as well.

The noble Baroness also asked me about the diverse ethnicity and integration policy and what we were doing on that, and about recording the ethnicity divide on pay. We are certainly looking at that in the context of the Race Disparity Audit, which the noble Baroness will know that the Prime Minister has driven hard. That is now going forward, led by the Cabinet Office.

It was interesting to hear what the noble Lord, Lord Singh, said about people being asked about their attitudes to certain groups, including groups that did not exist, and because they sounded as if they could be racial minorities, people said that they did not like them. That is indicative of the ignorance that is behind a lot of this. I thank the noble Lord very much for highlighting that and for what he does. He says, to paraphrase him slightly, that Sikhs are not good at fighting their corner or complaining—but he always brings forward important matters so that we cannot forget the dimensions that exist there.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chichester made a point about Muslim women in particular being subject to discrimination and bigotry. It is awful that it occurs at all, but it is often even more appalling in relation to women, who can be isolated if they do not speak the English language well. That makes it particularly insidious, so it is important that we act. I thank him for that.

I congratulate my noble friend Lady Jenkin—I had not known about this—on her election to the board of the Fawcett Society and for all the work she has done on Women2Win over many years, and the success she has had. Yes, there is more work to be done, but she has done a terrific amount. She talked also about higher education and made a good point about the need for continuing support for women in Parliament. Going back to Operation Black Vote, it is interesting that there was a high proportion of women on that scheme—I did not count, but it was certainly at least 50%—so that is perhaps good news for the future.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, very much for a powerful description of the situation within Islam; there is certainly great diversity there, as I have found out in this job. There are the Ahmadiyya Muslims and other sects, and great national differences—the Bosniak Muslims often have different interpretations of Islam—and I agree with her that we need to take these things on board. She also stressed that the great mass of Muslims—the vast majority—are loyal to this country and play an active role as citizens of this country, which is not always appreciated and which, again, the media has a role in ensuring is carried forward much more.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Uddin, very much; she spoke about the urgency of the task, and I know about the work that she has done over many years and commend it. She also put this in the wider context of anti-Islamism in Europe, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, in closing. This is of course not just about Britain. That is bound to be our main focus, but it is horrific to see that this is becoming a worldwide problem, and certainly a Europe-wide problem. We can see some of the discrimination and the results of it across Europe.

The noble Lord, Lord Hussain, again spoke of the proud role of the vast majority of British Muslims, including himself: he is a good example of a powerful role model. As I say, role models are extremely important. He also touched, as did others, on the dreadful anti-Muslim letters that we saw. I commend the community, who showed incredible courage, bravery and dignity during that period. It is difficult for me to appreciate what that must have been like, and I am sure that it was dreadful for somebody who was prominent in public life. However, it must have been far worse for people who are isolated. I am sure that Akeela Ahmed will not mind me saying that she, a prominent person, was not as fearful as other people in her family and people she knew, who she said were reluctant to come out that day. For that to happen in our country is dreadful. We should all feel a sense of shame about that and should work to counter it.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Afshar, very much for a very analytic description of the position and how we need to celebrate differences. Largely, we do; it is important to remind ourselves that the great mass of people get on with their lives, celebrate diversity in many aspects, and recognise the great diversity and benefits we have had from immigration in this country. We should now stand as one united nation, which is very much the message we should all carry forward. For people to talk about immigrant communities and their descendants as if they were the enemy within is distinctly un-British and shameful, and the Government are totally intolerant of it and will act on it.

In closing, I will try to encapsulate where we are. A great deal of work has been done. The Government’s position is fairly clear. First, if anyone asks the Government or indeed a political party, “Are you against anti-Semitic behaviour or anti-Islamic statements?”, of course any Government will say, “Yes; of course we’re against Islamophobia and anti-Semitism”. The question then is what we do. The first thing we need to look at—we will be looking to work done within government—is establishing a definition that will make things better. That is the start, and I think people will understand that. It may be that there is a swift resolution of that question, but we do not want to make things more difficult. We have seen today that there are different strands of opinion on how that definition should roll out; I appreciate that that is a slightly different aspect of the issue, but it means that the more potential definitions there are, the more you need to be reassured that you will not make matters worse.

Secondly, in parallel with that, we will certainly study the APPG report. It was thorough and well researched, and there are aspects to it that clearly anybody would want to take on board. That is the position we are in, and it is very much the position of the ministerial team in the department. This debate is important, and it will certainly be shared by the ministerial team to underline the importance of taking this forward.

[Baroness Warsi]

I thank my noble friend for giving way. I am sure he will agree that both he and other ministerial colleagues have indicated, from the Front Bench here and in the other place, that the problem the Government had with adopting a definition of Islamophobia was that they did not feel that the matter had been properly engaged with and agreed on. That was one of the reasons why the APPG went away to conduct this inquiry—particularly because, as the Minister is aware, government is much more hesitant about engaging with all aspects of British Muslim communities.

This report clearly had to engage with all aspects of British Muslim communities: those with which we in government agree and those with which we disagree. As the Government have curtailed their engagement with Muslim communities over the years—there is now a very small number of people and organisations that they continue to engage with—it was important to ensure a definition that would have agency with Muslim communities. It had to be one that was properly rooted in all communities, not just those aspects that the Government favour.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My noble friend is understandably very protective of the report, which I fully understand; the APPG does much great work but, as we have heard in this debate, there are differences that attach to the definition. No Government would want to rush in and say, “Right, this is what we do”. We need to do two things: first, determine that a definition will make things better—that is step one; and secondly, look at the various definitions. It may be that my noble friend is right and the definition that the APPG has come up with is the best one. But that is something noble Lords would expect us to test by consulting with Muslim communities up and down the country, and with others. I am somebody who speaks a lot to Muslim communities around the country. I frequently visit mosques and talk to people about these things. It is not all one-way traffic, as my noble friend will know. For example, TellMAMA is not convinced of the need for a definition. We need to get this right and I am determined that there should be a thoroughgoing discussion before we move things forward.

First World War Commemoration: Pakistan

Debate between Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Baroness Warsi

Monday 12th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right about the importance of yesterday and the importance of the contributions of people who were from what is now Pakistan. Subedar Khudadad Khan’s VC is commemorated in the doorway of the shared entry for Defra, the Home Office and my own department the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government. It is important to tell the continuing story of the contribution of people from what was the British Empire, then the British Commonwealth and now the Commonwealth. We make sure that people of all heritages in this country are aware of that. It was strongly underlined yesterday, and I hope very much that that continues.

[Baroness Warsi (Con)]

My Lords, I too pay tribute not only to Khudadad Khan, but also to Subedar Shahamad Khan and Subedar Mir Dast, who were also awarded VCs for their contribution, along with others in the Second World War. I think specifically of people like my maternal and paternal grandfathers who both served in the British Indian Army for the freedoms that we all enjoy today. Will my noble friend speak to his colleagues in the Department for Education to ensure that this part of our shared history is included in the curriculum because it is an important aspect of the fight-back against the narrative of those of the far right, who too often try to appropriate the good name of our Armed Forces to peddle their own hate?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, my noble friend is right to say that this is very much our shared history and about the three holders of the VC from what is now Pakistan, along with a significant number of others from elsewhere on the subcontinent and the rest of the world. The department has been honouring VC holders 100 years after the VC was awarded, in all cases throughout the war—the most recent one being just last Friday, 100 years after 6 November when that VC was gained. She is also right to point out the importance of the continuing story. I will ensure that the message is relayed to the Department for Education, which is very much aware of how important it is. As I say, I think that it was underlined graphically yesterday when the all aspects of the nation came together—people from all religions and no religion, and from all races—to commemorate the First World War and the Second World War.

Anti-terrorism: Hate Speech

Debate between Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Baroness Warsi

Wednesday 27th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, first, the Government are committed to tackling Islamophobia. Secondly, perhaps I could tell the noble Lord of two recent visits I have made in relation to faith institutions. One was to a mosque in Manchester: an excellent mosque in Gorton, where Jews and Christians were welcomed for a great iftar. It was a true expression of British Muslim activity. Similarly, the previous day I visited the Manchester Islamic High School for Girls, where the opening words from the headmistress were on how proud she was to be British—but she was also proud to be Muslim.

[Baroness Warsi (Con)]

My Lords, I do not like to read, but I shall be really careful how I phrase this with reference to the original Question. Could I ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, in pursuit of their antiterrorism strategy, they will require preaching in the form of Oral Questions and debate in your Lordships’ House to be monitored for hate speech and Islamophobia against Muslims? Does the Minister agree that Tommy Robinson, who has, to much disgust, been hosted in your Lordships’ House for tea and lunch but is now serving time in, I believe, Her Majesty’s Prison Hull, is now in a more appropriate place for someone who thinks, speaks, preaches and conducts himself as he does?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, my noble friend makes some powerful points, and I pay tribute to what she does in this regard. First, I agree with her about the importance of people in this House exercising discretion—of course, within the bounds of free speech—about what they say. Secondly, I am aware that Tommy Robinson is in Her Majesty’s Prison Hull, and I was aware that he was hosted here recently. I was recently in Hull myself, not on prison visits but on faith visits.

Integrated Communities

Debate between Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Baroness Warsi

Thursday 15th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, very much indeed. I know that he plays a vital part on that Select Committee and I join in his praise of the chairman, the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson. On his question, I have great sympathy with the point he is making. I was asked by a friend to provide some testing of model questions—which did not come with model answers, rather curiously—one of which was, “Was Richard III left-handed or right-handed?”. I had absolutely no idea at all and still have no idea. I do not know whether noble Lords can help me, but it struck me as a rather strange question relating to British life. It obviously needs a little attention.

[Baroness Warsi (Con)]

My Lords, I apologise to my noble friend for coming in as he was already on his feet at the start of the Statement. He may recall that an issue arose during Questions, and I was speaking to the House authorities about that.

I welcome the Statement, and I particularly welcome the divide in the Green Paper between integration and counterterrorism, something that many of us have been calling for for some time. I also welcome the reinstatement of a commitment to the teaching of English as a second language and, it is hoped, funding for the same. Will the Minister assure the House that the policy responses post the Green Paper will be evidence based, will take place after broad engagement and will be applied consistently across all communities? Will he also be mindful of the fact that, when we talk about separated communities, we draw a distinction between those communities, very small in number, which may seek to live separate lives and those which have no choice about where they live? Will he also deal with the issue of resources?

Finally, I congratulate the Green Paper on finally dealing with an issue that has been on the books since at least 2011, certainly from my time in government: the need for religious marriages to be part and parcel of legal marriages. The proposal is for a person to conduct a legal marriage in a civil ceremony before a religious ceremony is conducted. Rather than having this two-tier system, will the Minister look at proposals where both marriages could be conducted at the same time so that more places of worship where such marriages take place are formally authorised to conduct civil marriages, too?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend both for her questions and for her undying contribution to this area of national life, which is significant—everywhere I go I find that to be the case. I thank her heartily for the work that she does. Yes, the Government will ensure that the policy response is evidence based and that the approach is broad—hence the broad nature of the consultation—and consistently applied. Yes, we are making integration available to people; at the end of the day, we cannot force it. The vast majority of people in this country, of whatever background, race or religion, want that opportunity of mixing, which I think will be readily taken up when it is available.

I thank my noble friend for what she said about religious marriages and moving the discussion on. I am grateful to her for exaggerating my powers in this regard. The Ministry of Justice will look at this area, but, just like other areas, it is open for consultation, and I feel sure that my noble friend will make her views known on that and other areas.

Islamophobia

Debate between Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Baroness Warsi

Tuesday 17th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have a definition of Islamophobia; and, if so, what it is.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government and Northern Ireland Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth)]

My Lords, we are clear that hatred and intolerance against Muslims have absolutely no place in our society. Any criminal offence that is perceived by the victim or any other person to be motivated by hostility or prejudice based on a person’s religion or perceived religion is a religious hate crime. The Government do not currently endorse a particular definition of Islamophobia. Previous attempts by others to define this term have not succeeded in attracting consensus or widespread acceptance.

[Baroness Warsi (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that Answer. He will be aware that it is 20 years since the Runnymede Trust published Islamophobia: A Challenge for Us All, which first tackled the issue of Islamophobia. Does he agree that it is high time for us to have a definition of Islamophobia? Does he agree that we cannot fundamentally challenge the hate that underpins hate crime unless we define what that hate is? Is he agreeable to meeting a cross-section of community organisations and individuals, including the All-Party Parliamentary Group on British Muslims, to come to a definition?