Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Borrie and Lord McNally

Wednesday 23rd November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

No, I am not seeking to wind up the debate. I thought that it would be useful for me to say something now so that there would be something for the noble Lord to attack me on afterwards—and then I can attack him after that. No, I thought it would be useful at this stage to state where we are coming from because, as I say, I had a number of conversations with my noble friend Lord Newton. I had a meeting with him and my noble and learned friend Lord Howe and I took their concerns back to my colleagues.

However, I have to make it clear that the purpose of the Government today is to restate their intention to abolish the AJTC outright, using the powers in Clause 1. I also make it clear that the Government have no intention of merging the AJTC with the Civil Justice Council. There is no appetite within Government or the senior judiciary to add to the CJC to the Bill. I am pleased that following a Division in Committee, noble Lords agreed to the proposal to abolish the AJTC. I am conscious that what my noble friend Lord Newton has been trying to do—I still use the term noble friend, as I hope he will—is to give the Government some wriggle room on this matter. Sadly, as I have just explained, the Government do not want wriggle room on this matter but to abolish the AJTC.

The Government’s rationale for abolition has been made in both Houses and on a number of occasions. The Government are committed to this reform because the AJTC is an advisory body whose functions are either no longer required or, in the case of its policy functions, are more properly performed by the Government themselves. The abolition of the AJTC will have no direct impact on judicial independence or—

[Lord Borrie]

My Lords, an intervention by the Minister may well have been useful but he is using every sentence he now utters in opposition to any move of any kind. Does that mean that there is no point in any of us intervening further in this debate after he sits down?

Supreme Court: President

Debate between Lord Borrie and Lord McNally

Wednesday 16th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

Yes, my Lords. This is often called the “tipping point” criterion: whether, if there are two candidates of absolutely equal merit, the one from the black and ethnic community or the woman should be given the post. I go back to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, that the aim should be to get the best person for the job. That is something that I believe in but, if there are two candidates of absolutely equal merit and one is a woman or from the black and ethnic minorities, you might take into account that they have had a greater struggle to reach that point of merit. That may come into your final conclusion.

[Lord Borrie]

May I question the Minister’s view that diversity has been sufficiently practised by the Government and is being pushed in the way in which it is being pushed in discussion in this House? The most recent appointments to the UK Supreme Court were of two men: one came up the usual route from the Court of Appeal and was promoted; the other has not had any full-time judicial experience but is a distinguished Queen’s Counsel. Those are the most recent appointments, yet, as the Minister himself said, there are several women members of the Court of Appeal. Are they being sidelined?

[Lord McNally]

I do not think one should take a snapshot of the last two appointments and say that means that there is no diversity. There will be four appointments to the Supreme Court in the next 24 months. Let us wait and see.

Industrial Tribunals: Fees

Debate between Lord Borrie and Lord McNally

Wednesday 19th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I suspect that we will have discussions along these lines over a range of issues. I suspect that small charges for access to courts such as the tribunal service will not have a deterrent effect on meritorious cases. One small range of consultations suggested that there might be a small fall-off in applications with the introduction of fees. As part of the consultation that will take place in December, we hope to widen that impact assessment to make sure that we are going down the right road. Between 2001 and 2010, there was an 81 per cent increase in cases going to employment tribunals. There is a limit to what a free service at the taxpayers’ expense can bear.

[Lord Borrie]

My Lords, instead of charging workers for exercising their statutory rights to claim whatever it is that they want to claim for unfair dismissal, discrimination, et cetera, we should try to return to the position when employment and industrial tribunals started, replacing the courts to provide a more informal, less costly and simpler system to operate so that people would have the opportunity to put their case to a body that could deal with matters free of charge without incurring the sort of expense now being suggested.

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I fully endorse the growl of approval from the Benches opposite but this is precisely the argument that we will have again and again in the weeks and months to come. The problem is that a system that started off as a non-confrontational, non-legal settlement of disputes has become peopled by m’learned friends at great expense. We are trying to move away from a legalistic approach to settling disputes to one that will settle more by arbitration, conciliation and mediation.

Crime: Murder

Debate between Lord Borrie and Lord McNally

Monday 24th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Borrie]

My Lords, was the statement that the Minister made today approved by the right honourable Kenneth Clarke, who said, in the same week as the publication of the Green Paper indicating the view that the Minister has just given, that he did not think that mandatory life sentences were suitable except in the most serious cases and that they were quite inappropriate for mercy killings by a husband or wife of the other?

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, over the past few months when these matters have been discussed, a number of views have been given—I have given some views myself—but the fact is that the collective view of the Government is that the time is not right to take forward such a substantial reform of our criminal law.

Supreme Court: Retirement Age

Debate between Lord Borrie and Lord McNally

Monday 12th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I hear entirely what the noble and learned Lord says. Without prejudging the issue to which he referred, dare I say that hard cases make bad law? However, there is a wider issue about our Supreme Court. It would perhaps be revolutionary to get our second woman and our first ethnic minority representative in the Supreme Court. A lot of work has to be done if we are to have a Supreme Court that reflects Britain in the 21st century but there is clearly room for 58 year-olds in it as well.

[Lord Borrie]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that some of the finest judgments of the past century have been made by Law Lords in their 70s? Does he not think it sensible to retain people who in all probability are at the height of their intellectual powers when they are over 70 and ensure that they are not lost to the judiciary just because some slightly younger people aged 58 or 59 perhaps also ought to be there? You can always create more posts in total.

[Lord McNally]

These are very powerful arguments, which may be why the Lord Chancellor is looking at the matter. However, as I said, in parallel with the concern to retain the talent of the Supreme Court, there is, or should be, a similar concern to ensure that our Supreme Court better reflects our society in the 21st century.

Children: Criminal Responsibility

Debate between Lord Borrie and Lord McNally

Thursday 10th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, having had less than a month’s experience, I pay due deference to the experience of the noble Baroness. Whatever age group we pick will be arbitrary. I have looked at the international comparisons, which range from six to 17. I will obviously take back to the department the recommendations she makes for due consideration. However, I was very impressed by the mixture of processes introduced by the previous Administration which makes it a rare occurrence for very young children to be before a court. There is a mixture of reactions to their offending which seeks to achieve early intervention and progress for the children concerned.

[Lord Borrie]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that, while there may not be one perfect answer for all cases—the differences across the jurisdictions demonstrate that—it might be an idea if a judge had an element of discretion in the case before him not to allow what happened in the recent case to which the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, referred?

[Lord McNally]

The case that has been referred to is still under the jurisdiction of the judge concerned. However, it is interesting that he is going to give his opinions of the process to the Lord Chief Justice, who, in turn, will give his to the Lord Chancellor. I emphasise again, coming to this very green and very new, I was extremely impressed by the wide variety of responses. The idea that children aged 10 to 12 are automatically put into the court system is false. The number of responses that have been developed over the past few years are very impressive and much to the credit of the previous Administration.