Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Borrie and Lord Marland

Tuesday 18th December 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Marland]

I thought that that was a brilliant speech by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty—

[Lord Borrie]

If the Minister would care to allow some other speakers—

[Lord Marland]

I am sorry.

[Lord Borrie]

My noble friend Lord Whitty has made a most useful point. There is no doubt at all that this Bill, and this part of the Bill, is a convenient vehicle. Governments often look for convenient vehicles to do things that they have already decided to deal with. In this case that may not be so, but I suggest that if it seems convenient to the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, I have no doubt that it will seem convenient to some members of the Government.

I think that what we on this side of the Committee this afternoon are saying is that we are not worried about particular words in an amendment, and we are not expecting the Minister to accept these particular amendments. However, we are expecting the Minister to take this back to his people with higher pay rates than he has, and indeed to the Ministry of Justice and all the other departments that are probably interested in this subject, because plurality of the media is vitally important. It is a public interest concept beyond competition. It is subsidiary to competition, in a sense. We want competition because we want plurality. We want plurality because we want diversity of opinions throughout the industry. The Bill is a convenient opportunity to deal with an aspect of Leveson which, I am sure, is not the most controversial at all—but it happens to be with us, and it happens to be on the Government’s agenda. There also happens to be a Report stage and a Third Reading at which he can take this further.

Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Borrie and Lord Marland

Monday 10th December 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Marland]

My Lords, I have been very interested in the whole discussion on whistleblowing. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, and his team for their input to our thinking in the past few weeks. It has shed light on a number of issues that we will deal with later in his amendments, which are well thought out and on which we are coming to a conclusion. I want all Peers to know how important we believe this matter to be and how important it is to get it right. We are all singing off the same hymn sheet and obviously want to protect the whistleblower, and that is very much part of what we want to do.

My concern is that the amendment would narrow the whistleblowing provision. Public interest is critical: that is the primary thing rather than breach of contract. The noble Lord, Lord Young, has thrown up a number of examples of breach of contract and we could counter with examples showing where it does not quite work. I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, has just arrived because he is the one we have looked back to in coming forward with this. I wanted to look this up when we first embarked on this issue: at Second Reading on 11 May 1988—we were only children then—the wisdom of the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, had been honed to absolute perfection in the Public Interest Disclosure Act. I shall not read all of his speech but the following words are spot on. He said:

“As I hope I have made clear, this measure will encourage people to recognise and identify with the wider public interest and not just their own private position”.—[Official Report, 11/5/98; col. 891.]

I consider that in returning to contract people would identify with private position rather than the wider public interest. That is the seriousness of the threat. My view and that of the Government has not changed since then—I have given only an extract from an excellent speech—and I believe that we should carry on on that basis. I hope that will encourage the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Borrie]

It is hardly for me to criticise when the Minister has quoted from a speech of mine in the most favourable terms, but the debate was in 1998, not 1988.

[Lord Marland]

I apologise. Of course, the noble Lord’s wisdom had been honed even further by 1998, which gives the speech more gravitas.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Borrie]

I hope the Government are positive about this amendment. Secret justice is inherently evil unless there is some very strong argument the other way such as public security. When this is not the case, the Government will have a very difficult job convincing us that things are all right as they are.

[Lord Marland]

I have a nasty feeling that I am going to disappoint the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, who of course speaks with a wealth of experience. I have observed tribunals over time, and what I have seen is that when names are published and the press get hold of it, they often put an imbalance into the equation. I believe that giving advance warning of the case means prejudice may build up against either side. This can often be seen in press reports on tribunal cases and I think that is unfair. Of the tribunals I have observed—although not been involved in—that have been reported in the press, there have been many times where I would say at the end of the day the press have taken one side or the other and not given a balanced view—and that is what becomes of a public airing.

No one is saying for a moment that this process should not be transparent but people are saying that there should be fairness. This applies to both parties. We accept the transparency issue but I am afraid that, on this basis and from the experience that we have had, and my experience in particular, I do not think it is fair on either party. As such, it is not an amendment that particularly finds favour despite the fact that we seem to have agreed on most things today and will doubtless continue to do so. In the spirit of Yuletide, I hope the noble Lord will agree—I am looking at his face now because he is playing poker—to withdraw his amendment.