Sentencing Council Guidelines

Debate between Lord Bishop of Southwark and Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede

Thursday 3rd April 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord for the point he makes, and I accept that the reason the guidance included those specific phrases was to address the points made in the Lammy Review a number of years ago. The point that my right honourable friend makes and objects to is that that leads to a perception of unfairness in sentencing. While we acknowledge the fundamental mischief, if I can put it like that, of differential sentencing of certain ethnic and racial groups, we think there is a better way of addressing that, rather than explicitly referring to it in the guidelines to the judges and magistrates when they make their sentencing decisions.

[The Lord Bishop of Southwark]

My Lords, the independent Lammy Review of 2017, concerning the treatment of and outcomes for BAME individuals within the criminal justice system in England and Wales, identified disproportionate outcomes in a number of areas. I ask the Minister about two points raised in the final report relevant to the issue and whether there has been any progress. One was a lack of sophisticated data around ethnicity in the criminal justice system, and the second was that white suspects appearing in court were markedly more likely to plead guilty to an offence and thereby benefit from up to a one-third reduction in the sentence than was the case with BAME suspects.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Southwark for those questions. Regarding the lack of sophisticated data, that is a fair point, and we are continuing to work on building up that database, but it is an ongoing project to properly understand the nature of the differential treatment. The second point the right reverend Prelate makes is about the propensity of certain groups not to plead guilty, which means that they do not get the discount. That is certainly true in my experience of sitting in youth courts and adult magistrates’ courts. However, I do not think it accounts for all the disparity in sentencing, and I think there is more to the story. That needs to be gone into, and a better database would help the Government do that.

European Convention on Human Rights: 75th Anniversary

Debate between Lord Bishop of Southwark and Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede

Tuesday 7th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for that question. It is a matter for the Metropolitan Police. If appropriate, I will draw his comments to the Met’s attention.

[The Lord Bishop of Southwark]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the benefit of ongoing membership of the ECHR is, among other things, that it is vital for the continuation of the Belfast agreement?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I thank the right reverend Prelate for that question. He is right that the Good Friday agreement is underpinned by the convention, and it is important that that should continue.