Energy Bill [HL]

Lord Bishop of Liverpool Excerpts

Wednesday 26th January 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Oxburgh]

My Lords, I, too, strongly support this amendment. Listening to the informative discussion by noble Lords, I have seen my foxes shot one after the other so I will not detain the Committee for long, except to agree that the industry with which we are concerned here is fundamentally conservative. If we wait until there is any indication from the industry that it is ready for this, we shall wait for ever. The only thing to do is to fix a date.

If the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, with whom I so often agree, were to look at the regulations for vehicle emissions imposed by the state of California a number of years ago, he would see that the motor industry cried that this was totally impossible and would destroy the industry. Lo and behold, within a small number of years it was not only meeting the regulations but exceeding them. We have to fix a date and the industry has to work to it.

[The Lord Bishop of Liverpool]

My Lords, I also support this amendment. However, I congratulate the Government on the lead they have taken in this Bill. I also congratulate the opposition Benches because, when they were in government, they gave an unequivocal lead on reducing carbon. It is great from these Benches to observe such common cause across the House. We need that.

I take on board a powerful point that the Minister has already made about having a light touch and not being overly prescriptive because it begs the question: when is legislation necessary? When in a process in a public debate do we need legislation? That question consumes this House on a number of subjects, but on this one it must be something to do with when the public attitudes do not yet match the public good. What we are agreed upon on all the Benches is that it is in the public good to reduce carbon as urgently as possible. Public attitudes, however, are not yet that adamant. Many of us in this House are working very hard in different ways to try to change hearts and minds on this subject. However, in the light of public opinion not changing as fast as the climate itself is changing, we need legislation, which is why I support this amendment.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, this has been a fascinating debate, not just about contemporary and immediate housing policy, and the necessities that face us with regard to the threat of climate change and improving the carbon content of our housing stock, but about housing policy in history. I very much enjoyed the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Deben, and he made an important contribution to our deliberations this afternoon. We are as one with him on the importance of the date and of bringing into line an industry which, in the past in the United Kingdom, has not always been the most innovative and has distinctly conservative—with a small “c”—elements to it. It is important to realise that this Government, like the previous Government and all of us as a whole community, are determined on the issue of carbon content because it is so important in the battle against climate change.

The noble Lord will forgive me if I do not go into housing history but he might recall that council housing was introduced by a Labour Government. He might also recall, having cast aspersions on the immediate post-war Government, that there was a fair bit of reconstruction to do, other than to housing, from 1945 to 1951. He might also think with regard to the present housing situation that people have either to buy or rent these houses, so cost is important.

In the basic need of housing, we are rendering many of our fellow citizens vulnerable to a market that is under terrible stress at present. The imminent possible significant interest rate rises cause enormous difficulties for people who have to meet housing costs, which in Britain are so reflective of movements in interest rates. In these circumstances, he might think that those parts of Conservative Party history that have put us in this position may not make us well placed to encourage our community to respond to the necessity of this dimension of housing construction and housing need. For the immediate and foreseeable future—in terms of housebuilding, 2016 is not very far away—people are bound to be constrained by cost and anxiety. The whole of the housing market is bound to be plagued by difficulties of people being unable to afford what they are committed to in terms of houses.

Having said that, I welcome the fact that all contributions to this debate responded to the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin; he has played a valuable part in identifying the proper anxieties that the Government should have, such as the fact that they have to weigh up the overall position of what can be afforded and achieved. Regulations require enforcement. Who is going to do that—local authorities, with their huge, abundant resources to train and develop the capacity to carry out this degree of scrutiny and control? In the immediate future, we are not looking at too rosy a picture on that front either. The noble Lord has identified our anxieties and the Committee—I hope that the Minister will take this message and respond to it—is very strong in its commitment to this amendment, which offers a great deal to the Bill. We are pleased to support it.

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I am not saying that I hope we will necessarily embrace all or any of the amendments that are currently before us; I simply hope that the Minister will be prepared to go away and provide a distillation of the best of all three amendments and give us something to vote for when we reach Report.

[The Lord Bishop of Liverpool]

My Lords, I, too, support the thrust of the amendments. I completely agree with the arguments that have been put forward by the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Deben, and shall not repeat them. However, I should like to emphasise two points. First, we hear a lot of talk about whether initiatives should be top-down or bottom-up. However, these amendments—especially the one tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Deben—bring top-down and bottom-up together, and I hope that in that pincer movement we shall begin to change local opinion. Secondly, the north-west is the most renewable energy-rich region in the whole of the United Kingdom. I have before me the local carbon budget of Liverpool City Council and that of the city region. These are very important documents. Indeed, the Prime Minister was recently in Liverpool and on Merseyside with Peel Holdings, the biggest property owner in the region, which is already a partner in setting up a consultation on looking at the tidal barrier for the River Mersey. These are really important initiatives. However, I am concerned that the leader of Liverpool City Council estimates that over the next four years the city will lose about £1 billion of inward investment. That is a serious blow to any community. However, the council is committed to the low-carbon initiative. The leadership of the city and the region need this sort of legislation to protect them from the pressure that will inevitably come when hard decisions need to be made.

We believe, as we have already rehearsed, in the urgency of reducing our carbon emissions. That now needs to be translated into protection for people at the local level who also believe in it but need our legislative support to deliver it.