United Kingdom and China

Lord Bishop of Guildford Excerpts

Thursday 7th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Guildford]

My Lords, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Birmingham deeply regrets that he cannot be in his place today. He is the envoy of the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury in relation to China. I am sorry that he is not here speaking, and not only because I am speaking in his place.

We are hearing, and shall continue to hear, many fascinating things in this debate about China, not least from the two maiden speeches, to which we look forward. The importance of student academic exchanges, stressed by some noble Lords, particularly resonates with me. I declare an interest in the University of Surrey with its developing—indeed burgeoning—links with China. That is wonderful.

I begin with the recent comment by Aaqil Ahmed of the BBC on British religious illiteracy. I make a plea for attentiveness to the religious and philosophical, not least Confucian, history of China, without which we shall not be able to understand China today or tomorrow, in all its bewildering and bedazzling complexity. As a metaphor for this bedazzlement, we might consider the current exhibition of Chinese painting at the V&A, which the Foreign Office Minister opened a few days ago, or cast our minds back to the exhibition at the Royal Academy which coincided with the Chinese state visit of 2005, and displayed wonderful artefacts of the Manchu emperors. Just as those paintings and artefacts are of bedazzling complexity and subtlety, so is China’s relationship with western religion and philosophy, and with Christianity in particular.

When Marco Polo visited Kubla Khan in the 13th century, he found to his surprise, in and around Nanjing, ancient Christian communities originating from Syriac-speaking eastern Christianity, probably from the seventh, or maybe the fifth or sixth century, along the Silk Road, following the economic tracks of the world. At a later date, there is an extraordinary monument to a Christian bishop from the so-called Nestorian Church of China from that early period. The combination of Christianity and China is not something new.

In, the 17th century, the Jesuit Matteo Ricci settled in China for many years, and accommodated his little community to Mandarin culture. By his time those earlier traces of Christian communities had almost disappeared. He experimented boldly with a Confucian interpretation of the Catholic faith. In the end, he was not supported by Rome. If noble Lords want a fascinating account of a dialogue between western philosophy and culture and Mandarin culture in that period, Cambridge historian Mary Laven’s book on Ricci’s mission to China is a very good way in. The stories of various 19th-century Protestant missions to China are much better known. They have their heroes and their heroines but I will not take time on that this afternoon in your Lordships’ House.

My point is that any understanding of the interrelationship between this country and China needs to take into account religious and philosophical dimensions that go back many centuries. Today, the Church of England, largely through the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury, is building, as best it can, good relations with the China Christian Council. Elder Fu Xianwei attended the most reverend Primate’s inauguration earlier this year and, in a long personal conversation afterwards, invited him to China. I have no doubt that, at some stage, the most reverend Primate will accept that invitation and implement it.

The exponential growth of Christianity in China, especially in the growing eastern cities, is not well known here. There are huge numbers of practising Christians in China, amounting to many tens of millions, although I agree that the exact figure is very hard to determine. They operate largely—to use western language—in non-denominational church structures: roughly speaking, independent congregations in loose federations. The Chinese Government have a close interest in how religion helps in building a harmonious society, now that communism is not the only player in China’s major global role. Here, I particularly single out the work of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences in Beijing.

The churches, as they noted at the most recent National Chinese Christian Congress, in September, are also making a major priority of international relations. Here is an opportunity for British churches to respond to this as we all give China the attention it certainly deserves. Co-operation is also developing over theological education, especially at the national theological college in Nanjing and with the Amity Foundation, in its work with the poor in rural regions. Amity Printing Presses, in conjunction with the International Bible Society, has produced 20 million copies of the Bible in Mandarin in recent years.

When Matteo Ricci went to China four centuries ago, he took, as a present from the Pope of the day, a chronometer that also showed the movements of the solar system—a wonderful example of western scientific craftsmanship, which made more accurate calculations than the Chinese astronomers and mathematicians could make at the time. However, Matteo Ricci discovered in return the riches of a deep and wonderful culture. This whole debate is about the exchange of religious, philosophical, economic and cultural gifts, et cetera. My plea is that, amid such a rich exchange of gifts, we do not forget to show proper attentiveness to the religious, philosophical and cultural traditions of China and our own country, and their part in what will happen as we further develop our relationship with China.

Palestine: United Nations General Assembly Resolution

Lord Bishop of Guildford Excerpts

Monday 3rd December 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Guildford]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, for raising this urgent, peace-threatening question. Your Lordships may be aware that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Exeter, together with the Roman Catholic bishop, Bishop Declan Lang of Clifton, had written to the Foreign Secretary in some regret at the UK’s abstention from the UN vote on Palestine’s non-member observer status. They—and all of us on these Benches, irrespective of our views on voting or abstention—urge Her Majesty’s Government to do everything possible to revitalise the stalled peace process in the Middle East.

I am particularly grateful that the last speech highlighted the importance of a regional peace discussion. We understand the desire to urge all parties to desist from actions—such as a Palestinian appeal to the International Criminal Court—which would make a restart of discussions, whether completely international or more regional, more difficult. Yet is there not a desperate need to signal that there must be a way forward through international law, which the new Palestinian status surely indicates, lest despair of a two-state solution, or any other solution, lead to the resumption of violence such as the firing of rockets from Gaza, which has already been alluded to? That could slide into the regional war to which the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, has just alerted us.

My stress on a solution grounded in international law is a point which the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Exeter would have made had he been in his place. He is in fact visiting some of his flooded churches today. This stress enables me warmly to welcome today’s news from the Foreign Office of the summoning of the Israeli ambassador to meet the Minister with responsibility for Middle East affairs. Afterwards a spokesman mentioned the Government’s potential “strong reaction” to Saturday’s announcement of Israel’s building plans between east Jerusalem and the West Bank. These plans seem, to my judgment, an absolute roadblock to the resumption of any progress and any new negotiations. There are many things on either side which could threaten the only real option for peace—the resumption of discussions, which is the only real option for security for Israel, as has already been mentioned. Continued building on the wrong side—the wrong side in international law; the wrong side of the green line—is, in my view, the most serious threat of all.

Cyprus

Lord Bishop of Guildford Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd October 2012 Grand Committee

[The Lord Bishop of Guildford]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a vice-president of the Conference of European Churches, of which the autocephalous Orthodox Church of Cyprus is a member.

First, I will offer a personal reminiscence. Way back during the summer of 1974, I was preparing myself to take up a post at Lambeth Palace in the then international affairs department. The breaking news of course that summer was the Turkish invasion of Cyprus in response to the provocative tactics, already mentioned, of the Greek-speaking south, instigated by Athens. There the division of Cyprus seems to have remained. I am not unaware of the significant local and international attempts at reconciliation, which we have heard, and we know, have had no success so far.

The points I want to make are simple. First, before the intervention and its provocation, there were many villages and communities where there was a well documented positive relationship between the local communities. The partition and then the movement of populations have made that much more difficult and, indeed, in most places locally impossible. Yet there were places where the two religious communities, Greek Orthodox and Muslim, in part shared, in a local way, each other’s local feasts and festivals. Some restoration of this local community respect and mutual celebration needs to be considered, alongside political initiatives. That is very much alongside what the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, said in terms of civil society.

The second point is about the UN and the Green Line. The softening of the Green Line in part in latter years is, of course, welcome—it is easy for tourists. This needs to be further encouraged in terms of the ability of the local communities. Some time ago, I spent some time on the Green Line with the British Army chaplains seconded to the UN force. I could go across either side at will because I have a UN pass and privilege to do that. The local communities need to be enabled to do that again too.

Thirdly and finally, in Turkey there are reasonable and constructive religious relations and dialogue, at least at the level of the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Muslim leaders in Istanbul and elsewhere. Obviously that does not apply to more extreme groups, but there are external ecumenical bodies, such as the Conference of European Churches and the World Council of Churches that might in part, alongside a reengagement of civil society, be constructive instruments of reconciliation. In a taxi on the way here this afternoon, I noticed an advertisement for North Cyprus as a unique Mediterranean experience—“beautiful North Cyprus”. I encourage everybody and Her Majesty’s Government to do all we possibly can to make that experience even more beautiful in terms of the reconciliation of communities, in spite of all the international road blocks so far.

European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill [HL]

Lord Bishop of Guildford Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd May 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Guildford]

My Lords, I am very appreciative of the Minister’s introduction to this debate. For your Lordships’ pleasure, I hope, I think that I can assure you that I will be mercifully brief, because last Thursday I spoke to the treaty amendment Bill in relation to the gracious Speech.

I speak in strong support of the Bill. Although it will entail no automatic bailout from the United Kingdom in relation to the euro crisis, we cannot be—and indeed we are not—indifferent to it. We are implicated in it, as a number of speakers have already said, including the noble Lord, Lord Radice. It gives the euro states a kind of release mechanism to enable them to implement a desperately needed, effective mechanism for economic stability.

I speak as one of the co-presidents of the European Council of Churches. I find myself in regular discussions with a counterpart in Germany who rejoices in the wonderful title of Oberkirchenrätin—note the feminine German ending—and also with a Greek Orthodox Metropolitan who lives in Paris and looks after the Orthodox community in France. The German, Greek and British church leaders meeting in France are neither unaware of nor indifferent to the financial turbulence and instability throughout the continent of Europe and its personal human consequences. The last time we met I heard of the soup kitchens being established by the Greek Orthodox Church in Athens, to which thousands of people come daily.

This is a technical Bill but behind it are human faces. We think of Greece but, if we go over the precipice, we might have to think of Spain or Italy and, indeed, ourselves. So I strongly support the Bill. I repeat what I said on Thursday. We are involved in the rest of Europe not only economically but, of course, geographically; and we are certainly involved culturally and in terms of religion and faith communities as well.

I crave the indulgence of the House and the Minister because I may need to leave before the end of the debate as I am due to institute a new woman priest in Normandy. As the Minister will know, Normandy is just north of the Hog’s Back in Surrey.

Queen’s Speech

Lord Bishop of Guildford Excerpts

Thursday 17th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Guildford]

My Lords, I return to a European Union theme. I declare an interest as a vice–president of the Conference of European Churches.

From these Benches I warmly welcome the inclusion in the gracious Speech of the European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill—that is a nice mouthful, is it not?—although I note the question of the noble Lord, Lord Wood, about support for it in another place. I have also listened carefully to the careful and informed speech of the noble Lord, Lord Williamson of Horton, on this matter.

The European Stability Mechanism will replace earlier and apparently ineffective mechanisms. Although the ESM will entail no UK budget liability—that of course remains the responsibility of the euro member states—all European Union member states must approve the amendment to the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU, so confirming that the mechanism is legally compatible with the treaties. This is rather technical but it is very important.

Your Lordships’ House will not include many who think that European economic stability and the future of the euro in Greece or Spain or Italy, or even the future of the euro itself, is a matter of indifference to the United Kingdom. Of our exports, 40% are to the euro area. This is no new thing. My own diocese, largely in Surrey, was once big in wool. The arms of the bishops of Guildford include several woolsacks because the wool came from the North Downs, down the River Wey, down the River Thames and over the North Sea to Flanders, where it was sold for the cloth trade. Economically, we are still intrinsically bound up with our fellow European states. Whatever differences there may be among Members of this House on the extent to which we should be involved financially in supporting the euro—that is complicated, as the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, mentioned this morning—I welcome the intention of presenting this legislation shortly, and of supporting the eurozone states in their internal endeavour to secure the stability of the euro and of Europe, of which we are a part. It would be my hope that both Europhiles and Eurosceptics—in and out of government, in this House and elsewhere—could unite on this at least.

It can be no comfort at all to your Lordships’ House to contemplate the enormous difficulties we have seen in the forming of a permanent Government in Greece, or this morning’s news in at least two papers of the beginning of a rush on the Greek banks. Then there is the continuing social unrest there in the land, and indeed in the city, of the birth of democracy. That is significant. Nor can we contemplate with equanimity the disturbances in Spain. I therefore invite the Minister to say a little more on how the United Kingdom Government can continue, no doubt behind the scenes, to be of assistance to the eurozone states, as they have been, perhaps somewhat robustly, in the discussions leading up to the decision about the ESM.

I also welcome anything the Minister can say on the way in which the United Kingdom is to keep in touch with what may develop following the meeting this week between President Hollande and Chancellor Merkel, as well as, of course, exchanges between the new French President and our own Prime Minister. The Chancellor and our Prime Minister are not for turning on austerity. That is clear, but Chancellor Merkel also spoke of the possibility of an add-on growth policy. Once again the UK, as I am sure the Minister will agree, is not isolated from the common need of all European countries to move out of recession. That will not be easy, as the Governor of the Bank of England has recently reminded us. My plea is that we move beyond slogans to a more mature discussion about the troubles of Europe—of which we are part—and how we can move forward together.

Finally, my concern is not only that the United Kingdom is intrinsically linked economically with Europe. It is much more than that. The Christian faith and all that goes with that culture came with the Roman soldiers and merchants to Britain. It came again with the Celtic missions from Ireland and Scotland, and again from Rome itself to Canterbury. We in turn sent missionaries to what is now the Netherlands, north Germany and Scandinavia. Irish missionaries travelled all over Europe. This is relevant to a forthcoming appointment: archbishops of Canterbury came from what is now Turkey, from Aosta in north Italy and Normandy. A Yorkshire priest-scholar, Alcuin, was Charlemagne’s chief adviser and confidante. The Reformation came from Württemberg, Geneva and Strasbourg. The royal families of England were conjoined with the royal families of Aragon, of Castile, of France and later of Holland and Hanover and, most recently, Greece.

I look forward to this rather technical legislation as a sign that, despite differences of approach to fiscal union and the disputed question of direct support for the euro, the United Kingdom remains committed to the fact that we are part of Europe, not only financially but historically, culturally and religiously. Consequently, we have our political and economic part to play therein.

EU: Recent Developments

Lord Bishop of Guildford Excerpts

Thursday 16th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Guildford]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for this debate, and indeed warmly welcome it, including his stress on the necessity for fiscal discipline within the eurozone and his explanation of the crucial December agreement, which has already been referred to many times in the debate. In any case, Guildford is very pleased to speak in a Guildford debate.

I draw attention to your Lordships’ EU Committee report, which was published two days ago and to which I am much indebted. It draws attention to what may be a serious anxiety shared by other Members of your Lordships’ House—that the United Kingdom will be marginalised by reason of a shift of discussion to forums in which we have elected, for the time being, to have no voice. While I am glad that the UK is not opposing the proposed agreement of last December in terms of its support through European Union mechanisms, I hope, along with the EU Committee, that we shall follow its course very carefully and see where both our best interests and those of the whole EU lie in the longer term.

I suggest that it would be disastrous if the result of the pressure of what I will carefully call excessive Euroscepticism resulted in our ultimate isolation. However, I deeply sympathise with the Minister because such “islanders’ fear” is hardly new. Just over 30 years ago, in the Palais des Congrès in Brussels, the then Archbishop of Canterbury, Robert Runcie, said that in Britain:

“The European Community has a communication difficulty in expressing its underlying vision. … It is going to be hard to make progress if there is no vision of where we are going sufficiently strong to harness the energies which are easily diverted into mutual suspicion and selfish kinds of nationalism”.

In that same lecture he bewailed the fact that:

“Little Englanders still exist who believe that all would be well if we withdrew from foreign entanglements”.

He added the obvious statement:

“The complexity and interdependence of economic and political life in the modern world make isolation an impossible option”.

Plus ça change!

It is still obvious to me that if there is a leak in the ocean liner below the eurodeck, it will soon enough affect the sterling passengers as well, as the Minister has himself stressed, adding significantly that the EU is our largest market.

However, in your Lordships’ debate today, which is largely about economics and politics, the voice of the churches and, indeed, of faith communities, may seem an irrelevance. I argue that that is not the case, although I declare an interest here as the Anglican vice-president of the Conference of European Churches, which is wider than the EU.

Robert Runcie could not be dismissed as a wet pro-European without patriotism. He did not earn his MC in the Scots Guards for Utopian idealism but by knocking out a Panzer single-handedly in Normandy. Yet after the war he returned to Oxford and immediately volunteered to go back to Germany in the Oxford-Bonn reconciliation exchange. That was the European vision he spoke of in Brussels: a Europe of reconciliation, compassion and meaning. With such a vision we have the potential for communities of virtue.

This was also the Christian vision of the founders of the European institutions: Jean Monnet, Robert Schuman, Spaak and de Gasperi. They were inspired by a vision of what I would loosely call Christian democracy—that is not necessarily a party political tag—which gave life to otherwise dead institutional and economic structures. Without such fresh vision, I fear that Europe will eventually lapse into petty parochial haggling and dangerously extreme forms of nationalism.

I am an amateur historian, so I conclude with the following reminiscence. Not far from this place, in Westminster Hall, the Man for All Seasons, Thomas More, was tried, to be eventually beheaded at the Tower of London. At his trial in this Palace of Westminster, he spoke movingly of his true patriotism. He remained the King's servant—though, of course, God’s first—but he also had a wider vision than King Henry VIII. Thomas More said at his trial:

“And for the Kingdom I have all other Christian realms”.

As we properly debate the economics and politics of the EU and wider Europe, may I make a plea for a revival of the vision of Europe which fired the EU’s founders and which is deeply rooted in Europe’s many cultures and, now, its many communities of faith?

Christians in the Middle East

Lord Bishop of Guildford Excerpts

Friday 9th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Guildford]

My Lords, as we advance towards Christmas it should be a statement of the obvious that Christians, from the young rabbi who is recognised as Jesus the Christ by his followers, have been in what we call the Middle East for two millennia. Yet curiously, as has already been noted in the debate, the general western perception is that the Middle East is Islamic and the West is Christian. Both perceptions are demonstrably false. That has been articulated in a number of speeches, most notably by the most reverend Primate.

We have all been attending to the continuing election process in Egypt in the last few days. The Muslim Brotherhood appears to be the dominant emergent party but there has been strong support for a more sectarian party. I am sure that all noble Lords wish all Egyptians well for a better participatory, democratic future; but we also understand the real unease of the Christian communities in the Middle East, and especially in Egypt. Yet in Egypt they are not a tiny minority. It is difficult to get accurate figures, but estimates of Egypt's Christian population vary between 6 million and 12 million people. The largest group, as has already been noted, is the Coptic Orthodox Church under their Father in God, Pope Shenouda. In the past I attended his powerful sermons in St Mark's Cathedral, Alexandria, and in Cairo. I saw the work of the Coptic Church in Egypt with the poorest of the poor in the township of the Zabaleen—the shanty town of the street cleaners of old Cairo. There were not only new churches, but alongside them clinics and schools.

The Coptic Church is ancient. It goes back to the tradition of St Mark himself, centuries before Islam. It is rather older than the Church of England and certainly older than my diocese of Guildford. I am happy to say that until recently we hosted a Coptic congregation in one of the churches in my diocese. They now have their own church. It is also very good to spy here today not a stranger in the Gallery but a friend in Bishop Angaelos, who has responsibility for the Coptic communities in Britain.

There have been difficult times in the recent past and present, which have been well articulated. In an article in a recent edition of the Egyptian Gazette, a visiting lecturer at the great Muslim Al-Azhar University in Cairo, already mentioned in the debate, cited a letter from the Prophet Muhammad to the monks of the monastery of St Katherine on Mount Sinai. The letter exhorts Muslims to protect Christians. When there were tensions in the past, the Coptic Pope Shenouda was put under house arrest because it was necessary to take steps against some Muslim groups and there was a sort of political even-handedness. I tell this story for the comfort of the most reverend Primate. Pope Shenouda was exiled to his peaceful monastery—already alluded to by the noble Lord, Lord Patten—in the Alexandrine desert. When the most reverend Primate is next in trouble with some sections of the British public and media, perhaps he might ask for such a peaceful place of exile.

In Syria and in Iraq the Christian churches are much smaller, but they, too, have been there since the beginnings of Christianity. The name Syrian Orthodox—the Suriani—speaks for itself. The patriarchs of Antioch take their title from the city where Christians were first so-called. Today there is deep uncertainty. Syrian Christians are meeting today in Geneva with the World Council of Churches to talk about their future. They are led by their patriarch, whom I remember as a young Syrian Orthodox bishop for whom I once organised a visit to the Church of England. He was rather impressed by Christ Church, Oxford. From the eastern Christian Syrian tradition—the Church of the East or Nestorian Church—there spread missions that reached the Malabar coast of India and the city of Nanking in China via the spice trade routes. Yet we have almost forgotten these ancient Christian churches, and many of their faithful are now in diaspora in Sweden, the USA, Canada, Australia and elsewhere, and of course here in Britain.

There was a time in living memory when, in most places of the region we are debating, the relationship between Christian and Muslim neighbours was good. They even shared in the veneration of sacred spaces and shared forms of pilgrimage. One can read William Dalrymple’s From the Holy Mountain for that fascinating story. The noble Baroness, Lady Morris, referred to Caliph Umar. I must check my dates with her: I have him entering Jerusalem in 638 other than 637. The caliph was shown the great Church of Constantine by the patriarch Sophronios, but declined to pray in the church—despite being invited to, and provided with a carpet, by the patriarch. Why? Because, he explained, the Muslims would have taken over the church after his death because the caliph had prayed there. He protected that church.

But today there are fears. As we have heard, Christian groups are subject to surveillance and harassment, churches are torched or bombed and the faithful are killed. Perhaps the relatively new, and more assertive if not aggressive, Muslim tradition of Wahabiism may be in part responsible, but so also must the political identification of Christianity with the West and western political and economic influence in the Middle East. Many Muslims now see in Christians a political instrument of the West.

Let me give a little example of that from the early 20th century. I have already referred to the Nestorian Church, the ancient Church of the East, which is sometimes called the Assyrian Church. At the time of the First World War, the Assyrian clans supported the British against the Ottomans, and we encouraged this. Their clans then served in the Royal Air Force in Iraq and Iran in the 1920s and 1930s, so they inevitably became associated with British influence. That has become a very mixed blessing. More dangerous for all Christians since has been the association of Christianity with the more recent western interventions, as has been alluded to by the most reverend Primate and the noble Lord, Lord Wright. I urge a sensitive and informed understanding of all Christians in the Middle East, not least those who have been there since, in Christian terms, New Testament times, and who do not wish to go and who are loyal citizens of their nations.

Let me end with a quote from the Egyptian newspaper article to which I have already referred:

“For fourteen hundred years, people of faith have lived together in peace not only respecting one another but also sharing one another’s joys and sorrows. Inshallah, God Willing, this will be the case for another fourteen hundred years”.

That is an aspiration and a prayer, which will require not only changed perceptions but actions, both here and there.

Sudan

Lord Bishop of Guildford Excerpts

Thursday 8th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The short answer is: yes, we are aware of this. We support the recommendation of the report by Navi Pillay that there should be an independent inquiry into these atrocity allegations. This will be pushed ahead as fast as possible.

[The Lord Bishop of Guildford]

My Lords, I was grateful to read the Ministerial Statement earlier in the week. I have just read a Ministerial Statement issued today by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office on this very serious area. Does the Minister have a prognosis of the African Union discussions under Thabo Mbeki, and what hopes does he have for that agency to influence for good a very difficult situation?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My Lords, the right reverend Prelate is right. We have issued a Written Statement today trying to bring colleagues up to date with the very ugly, and, I am afraid, deteriorating, situation. The official leading the African Union implementation panel has, of course, been Mr Mbeki. However, there is increasing activity as well from President Meles of Ethiopia, who is taking a lead in trying to get the aims of the panel and all the untied-up ends of the comprehensive peace agreement carried forward. There is more involvement locally. The whole process is very much alive.

European Union Bill

Lord Bishop of Guildford Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd March 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Guildford]

My Lords, in the light of the confusion and controversy over the ratification of the Lisbon treaty, some clarification of procedure for agreeing to our ratification of important European Union decisions and treaty changes becomes obviously desirable. Indeed, as the cross-party agreement on the need for a referendum on entry into the euro indicates, there appears to be broad agreement that key decisions should entail a referendum lock-in. I also welcome the extended provision for parliamentary decisions in relation to the European Union.

However, as the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, has said, commenting on her own Constitution Committee report, the rather extensive provisions for referenda could pose a significant challenge to our constitutional settlement in the long term. The sovereignty clause states what is already the case, as has been reiterated in your Lordships’ House this afternoon. EU law takes effect in the UK primarily by virtue of the European Communities Act 1972. Nevertheless, would not a large extension of the principle of decisions by plebiscite risk evacuating the principle of parliamentary sovereignty of real meaning?

Moreover, I would argue that referenda can work well for big things about which people feel passionately, but rather less, I suspect, for detailed, technical and complicated issues. We shall see shortly, for example, whether the public have a real grasp of the technical differences between the present electoral system and the proposed alternative voting system, and whether the latter will also be hopelessly confused with the proportional representation that others favour, as I fear. We shall see.

Granted the lamentable endemic low view of Europe in the United Kingdom, is there not a serious risk that extensive referenda on necessarily complex European issues matters could lead, as the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, indicated, through low turnout and referenda fatigue, to a multispeed Europe in which the UK is confined to the hard shoulder? In the context of debate on the Lisbon treaty, the Bill looks appropriate; but could it have unintended negative long-term effects?

I have another question of a rather different character. At the time of the Lisbon treaty, application was made to the courts on the then decision not to seek a referendum. The cases were dismissed on the proper grounds that they were,

“an attempt to pursue a political agenda through the court”.

Yet the Bill at Clause 5, as interpreted by the Explanatory Notes, makes it clear that a ministerial determination on whether a treaty or amendment is “significant” would be open to judicial review. I would value the legal wisdom of your Lordships’ House in this apparent invitation to the Appeal Court or the Supreme Court to determine what the courts have only recently stated to be political questions.

To conclude, I reiterate that the Bill appears to be a necessary post-Lisbon debate clarification. However, I ask whether the apparently very extensive provision for referenda on complex issues may, if applied, put us on a slow train in Europe, while diluting parliamentary sovereignty in the longer term.

As the Government and the Minister have said that they do not intend to use the referenda provisions during this Parliament or, one understands, to use them widely, I am partly reassured. I would welcome further reassurance, but I still wonder whether the provisions for referenda are drawn too widely in the Bill as it stands.

Religions for Peace

Lord Bishop of Guildford Excerpts

Tuesday 1st February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My Lords, these efforts should of course receive maximum encouragement from all sources, but whether one should necessarily mix up the international relations between Governments with the very valuable work of non-governmental organisations, voluntary organisations, religious organisations and professional groups is a wider question. My own view would be that this organisation, which the noble Lord knows a great deal about, has done and continues to do immensely valuable work, and in a way gains prestige and effect by standing clear of the pattern of intergovernmental relationships which often has to deal with very hard and sometimes violent and difficult issues.

[The Lord Bishop of Guildford]

My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that an appropriate involvement of faith communities in discussions relating to human conflict, poverty and the environment could, under some circumstances, be highly advantageous?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Yes, I certainly agree with that proposition.