Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 (Extension of duration of non-jury trial provisions) Order 2015

Debate between Lord Bew and Lord McAvoy

Wednesday 22nd July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bew (CB)]

My Lords, I rise briefly, with a heavy heart, to support this approval Motion. I am very grateful to the Minister for the way in which he has explained the context fully and fairly. I would add only one consideration, which is that another destabilising element in the recent situation was the large paramilitary display by the INLA at the weekend in Derry. It contributes to a picture where, unfortunately, it is necessary to maintain this particular provision. I am very grateful to the Minister for saying that there will be a wider consultation next time out.

I have been speaking on these Motions since my arrival in this House, and I would love to think that, 10 years in, next time out the Minister will have better news for us. I support the approval Motion today.

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the Minister to his brief. Let me place on the record that we appreciate the efforts that have been made by him in consultation. I echo what the noble Lord, Lord Bew, said—it is with a heavy heart but nevertheless a necessary attitude towards the legislation. The shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Ivan Lewis, was consulted on these measures. Again, that demonstrates the bipartisan approach to issues in Northern Ireland, which is absolutely necessary. That was before the election but we are still very grateful for that.

We all recognise that non-jury trials are not an ideal part of the justice system. They are currently necessary in a society emerging from conflict. The measures will be used in only a small number of cases—as stated, fewer than under the previous Diplock system, and under very specific circumstances, as outlined by the Minister. The Minister said that the measures were justified, and we agree. The situation is unique, and we agree wholeheartedly. We accept assurances about future monitoring of the figures.

The noble Lord mentioned examples of recent behaviour in Derry/Londonderry and clearly outlined the procedure. We support the Government on that. These measures are an improvement on Diplock. The figures need to be monitored. We also wholeheartedly welcome the public consultation, as mentioned also by the noble Lord, Lord Bew. That is a positive measure because the situation in Northern Ireland will have to be resolved within the political process.

We need to make political progress in Northern Ireland through implementing the Stormont House agreement in full to better deal with the underlying tensions that make such differences in the justice system necessary—they are necessary, unfortunately. Collectively, we need to make sure that there is no let-up in the process in Northern Ireland. The Secretary of State has to be seen to be active in a bipartisan way, backed up by the shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland is not a place where one can take one’s eye off the ball. We must constantly reiterate the Stormont agreement and the need for peace and progress. Having said all that, clearly the measures are justified and have our support.

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Debate between Lord Bew and Lord McAvoy

Monday 3rd February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bew (CB)]

My Lords, I support the words of the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice. This is a more significant change than the House has fully grasped. We have recently lost a distinguished Member of the House of Commons, Mr Paul Goggins, who was widely respected on all sides. When he was Minister of State for Northern Ireland he used to say at the Dispatch Box that, “Electoral law will remain in this House for all time”. Today we are, in a sense, changing that. The reasons why he thought that are very close to the reasons given by the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice. I fully accept the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, that there is a general public perception in Northern Ireland and throughout the United Kingdom that there is great expense associated with the running of the Stormont Parliament. However, it is a lot easier to make a case for a reduction in the number of relatives assisting and the number of special advisers, as well as in this area, to deal with the question of public expenditure.

There is a fundamental point here. The very large number of representatives—108 for a small population—permits a greater role for smaller parties than otherwise would have happened, and these smaller parties have something relatively fresh to say in the context of Northern Ireland. Do not forget that we have a Parliament at the moment where 105 out of 108 Members support the Government. All of them would support the Government if it were not for the fact that we have this very broad system of allowing 108 people to be elected.

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the opportunity to restate the important role that Westminster and the Government play within Northern Ireland in building a shared future. The Secretary of State and the Northern Ireland Office must be actively involved and engaged in assisting the people of Northern Ireland to deal with past violence and the legacy of the Troubles. The Government have a duty to lead, but not prescribe, working with the Assembly, the Executive and the Irish Government. The Government must also take responsibility for and consider the effects of their economic and welfare policies in Northern Ireland. However, having listened to what has been said, and having indicated that it was a probing amendment, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 (Code of Practice) Order 2013

Debate between Lord Bew and Lord McAvoy

Thursday 20th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bew]

I thank the noble Baroness for introducing this statutory instrument and broadly offer my support. Since the Court of Appeal’s ruling in May of this year, it is clear that this matter has acquired a degree of urgency and I understand why the Government want to move so quickly. Broadly speaking, I accept her words when she says that the right balance has been achieved between civil liberties and the need to preserve public security.

However, I have one slight reservation. Paragraph 8.4 of the Code of Practice for the Exercise of Powers in the Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 states:

“The use of these powers can protect people’s rights under the European Convention on Human Rights, such as Article 2 (the right to life) by preventing serious harm posed by use of unlawful munitions and wireless apparatus. However, if these powers are exercised there may be some interference with other rights under the Convention, such as the right to private life, and this should be borne in mind when officers judge it necessary to use these powers”.

This is under the part of the code dealing with search for and seizure of munitions and transmitters. My slight problem with that phrasing is that it seems to say that there are two rights. It does not do so explicitly but it leads into it. One is the right to a private life and the other is the commitment that the police must have, under the European convention, to protect life. Following the Court of Appeal ruling, we are putting this problem back with the officers on the ground, and it is probably reasonable to make it clearer. I think that Parliament properly believes that the right to life, in certain circumstances, trumps the right to a private life for a person who might be under investigation. There is just an element of equivocation in the drafting there, which suggests an apparent equality of rights. I accept that it does not actually equate those rights but it certainly does not prioritise one right over another.

Noble Lords will remember that we have expected officers in the last few days, in the lead-up to the G8 summit, to protect world leaders who are in Northern Ireland. They might have been in a situation of trying to intercept ammunition that was being moved around Northern Ireland. I cannot imagine that it would be enormously helpful for them to have to have in mind that they must, on the one had, weigh up their views on the right to life—we all have the right to life but in this case it is the lives of some very important people—and at the same time have to bear that in mind that they might be interfering with the private life of the person driving the car. There is a real problem of balance here and I just think that the drafting is slightly too glib. I am not in any way going to push this point but think it is worth registering. Broadly speaking, I accept the reason for the statutory instrument and accept entirely the defence that has been offered this afternoon by the Minister.

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for the clear exposition of the powers outlined in the code of practice. There is a very wide range of powers affecting the Police Service of Northern Ireland and the Armed Forces and it is right and proper that there should be a well thought out code of practice governing the exercise and use of those powers. We all know the situation in Northern Ireland, where the authorities, the police and the Armed Forces have to be seen to be absolutely foursquare in their application of those powers. This code of practice builds in safeguards for the use of the powers for all in the community.

Security in Northern Ireland is of the utmost importance to all noble Lords in this House and we are united in our commitment to ensuring that people in Northern Ireland are safe and secure. The men and women officers of the Police Service of Northern Ireland do their jobs with bravery and dedication. The measures in the Act play a hugely important role in combating terrorism and protecting communities in Northern Ireland and it is very important that they are overseen by rigorous, independent scrutiny. That is encompassed in the code of practice, which is vital to maintaining public confidence in Northern Ireland in the exercise of these powers. We on this side of the House are happy to lend our support, in the best traditions of bipartisanship, and understand the reasons for the urgent nature of the measure. I would like to place on record that Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition give their full support to this order.