G20 Summit

Debate between Lord Berkeley of Knighton and Lord True

Tuesday 12th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I think my inference was reasonable on the basis of the remarks the noble Lord made.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, I hope I may make one aside, which I do not think has been mentioned yet. I found it very touching to see a British Prime Minister of Indian descent representing this country and landing in India. I think that says quite a lot about diversity and opportunity in this country. I realise that the Prime Minister comes from a well-heeled background: nevertheless, it is wonderful to see a British Prime Minister from that background representing us.

On Morocco, is the Minister aware of reports that that country is turning down aid from some countries? As for China and India, of course, however well we may do in this country on getting our carbon emissions down, it will pale into insignificance if we cannot get those countries—and indeed the US—to bring theirs down. My final point is on China. Was mention made of the persecution of the Uighurs?

Spyware

Debate between Lord Berkeley of Knighton and Lord True

Wednesday 21st July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con) [V]]

My Lords, again, I cannot comment on individuals, but I underline what I have said about this Government’s deploring of any effort to target UK individuals, the representations that we have made and the commoditisation of this kind of spyware. Unfortunately, the commercial cyber capability industry is global. We are seeking in many ways to try to secure better control and have legal, proportionate and proper use of any such devices, and better control of exports.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I realise that the Minister is under some constraint here, so let me try to put this in a slightly more philosophical sense. Is there not a somewhat justifiable element of fearing what we wish for, not unlike in the Huawei dilemma? In other words, do we need and use this technology and what it covers, and in so doing might we be lowering our own defences to it?

[Lord True (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I have said something about the controls on our own intelligence framework. As the noble Lord will know, the UK’s use of any investigative powers—I am obviously going much wider than this Question—including equipment interference, is governed by the Investigatory Powers Act. That provides extensive and robust safeguards and oversight that is judicial, political and parliamentary.

EU Trade Agreement

Debate between Lord Berkeley of Knighton and Lord True

Tuesday 8th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, mentioned, parliamentary scrutiny is very important here. Many Members of your Lordships’ House have raised concerns—especially regarding secondary legislation—that the Executive are taking more and more power for themselves. Is this another example of that, and will there be adequate parliamentary scrutiny of any changes?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the first two sets of proposals will be in primary legislation. That will give Parliament full opportunity to debate them.

Contracting Out (Functions relating to the Royal Parks) Order 2016

Debate between Lord Berkeley of Knighton and Lord True

Monday 24th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, I agree with all the speakers who have pointed out that the Royal Parks have done a good job up until now. They are quite wonderful places to visit. However, I was concerned by the report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee on two points in particular. It says:

“Given that there has been no public consultation process, however, we question whether the changes in prospect are widely known among the large numbers of people who use the Royal Parks, including London residents and visitors from elsewhere; in the absence of such consultation, we question whether it is appropriate to assume that the proposal will be readily welcomed by many users of the parks”.

I use all the parks a great deal and have done all my life. I am ashamed to say that I did not know about this proposal until I caught it in the business of your Lordships’ House. Would it not have been an idea, for example, simply to put a sign on the noticeboards which solicited inquiries from people who might like to contribute? If that has been done, I am sorry that I missed it. Also, as somebody who lives very near the park, I did not receive any mail on this subject.

The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee made another point:

“The House may wish to press for more detail of the regime that will apply to the future management of the parks, given that reference to ‘broadening opportunities’”—

which many noble Lords mentioned—

“inevitably raises questions about the balance between protecting the historic environment of the parks and allowing commercial activities in them”.

I speak with some authority here as a musician; I completely endorse what the noble Lord, Lord Ashton of Hyde, said—perhaps he should be “of Hyde Park” now—about public access to large events. It is perfectly true that a lot of people can experience an artistic event; we heard reference to the Rolling Stones—I went when I was a young man—and this is a laudable thing. However, I am worried that we are close to saturation point in Hyde Park in particular. I go there virtually every day, and in the easterly part of the park North Carriage Drive has to be closed. It is not just about getting the park ready for rock concerts, Proms in the Park and Winter Wonderland but about the closing down of the event and then the reseeding of the area. This means that a huge part of the park is virtually a no-go area for park visitors for quite a large part of the year. If this were to increase in any way, the whole ethos of that open space—somewhere people can visit and be quiet—could be severely damaged.

I raise these points for the Minister mainly to be taken into consideration and perhaps to be amplified still further. I understand that what he is saying is largely financially driven and I understand the need for that. Other noble Lords who have spoken know more than me about the efficacy of going down this route. However, while I endorse wider public access to events, I am nervous. It is hard for someone who runs parks such as these not to think, “We could make a few more bucks by having yet another rock concert”. A certain amount of detail is required to make sure that this does not happen. It is not spelled out enough.

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an interest to your Lordships: first, I am a member of the existing Royal Parks board; and I am also leader of Richmond local authority, which has the privilege of containing some of the most beautiful spaces in this country in the form of the Royal Parks within my borough. Having declared the first interest—as being part of the outgoing organisation—I should make it clear that I am very mindful of the Addison rules. It is not for me to rise in this House and answer the questions that have been asked about the management and future management. Under the rules of this House, those are matters for the Minister, and I am sure that he will answer those points adequately. However, perhaps I may allow myself some general reflections.

I understand that the noble Lord opposite simply does not like the order. That is probably because it has the words “contracting out” in its title. However, some of the services that we have heard about relating to the management of buildings and grounds are already provided by organisations which are contracted out, so no great principle frontier is being crossed here; it is a question of the management.

The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, was very supportive in the first 90 seconds of his speech but not quite so supportive in the remaining 10 minutes. I think that that comes from an understandable suspicion. People love these parks and do not want to see their ethos change. That has always been the guiding principle of anybody who has spent any time trying to support and sustain these parks. However, changing their status was not necessarily something that the Government were pushing for or particularly enthusiastic about in the earlier stages. As I conceive it, the idea is to try to give the parks a status that will enable them to thrive in providing the facilities that they have provided for so long.

In passing—again, without trespassing into saying inappropriate things in this House—I remind noble Lords that these are Royal Parks, and that in itself is something that the House might want to bear in mind.

On the question of the preservation of ethos, the point was made about not wanting too much in the way of entertainments. Again, without going into specifics—clearly, I recognise some of the things that have been said in relation to Winter Wonderland—the point is that local authorities will remain planning authorities. So for major functions, even if this new body—I can tell your Lordships that I have not applied to be a member of it—turned out to want to have knock-down, drag-out rock concerts every day, they simply would not get away with it because the local authority would be all over them. As far as functions in Hyde Park are concerned, I can tell the House that local authorities are all over the park, so I do not think that that fear would come to fruition. I and most of the others involved certainly would not support the change if we thought that that was the way forward.

It is true that the parks have moved to raise more money by means other than government funding. I think that that has been prudent, and it has been done in a way that broadly retains the ethos of the parks. I think that this is a case of damned if you do and damned if you don’t. If you sit there and say, “We’re not going to do anything”, and, in the light of what we all know is likely to be the ongoing financial situation, you expect the good old taxpayer constantly to go on providing, you are damned for not having used the talent you have been given to try to improve things. However, if you do try to use that talent, you are damned because you are being too commercial. Before and after I was involved, the parks have tried to find a balance, and I am sure that that is what will continue to happen.

I cannot stray too far into the issue of consultation as, again, I am conscious of the Addison rules. However, I can say from my own experience that when there was a proposal to close several gates in Richmond Park, people were all over it very fast. News travels if an adverse proposal is out there. So I think that the Minister needs to answer the questions that have been legitimately asked in the committee’s report and by noble Lords here. I have not become aware of a great storm of concern, but I am sure that the Minister will listen to some of the suggestions about how things might be done better.

On balance, I think that the parks will still be in a safe place under the proposals before us. I believe that the reserve powers of the Secretary of State will still be in place and that there will be careful scrutiny of the contracting arrangements. I do not think that Parliament can supervise KPIs or every detail and point of the contract. As I understand it, there are no plans to move away from the broad strategies that have been set out. Therefore, given the very careful thought that has been put into this measure and the need to reach out to more and more people around the world who love the parks, I think that the new arrangements, if they become charitable arrangements, may enable the parks to be secured.

While fully understanding the concerns that have been put forward by a number of noble Lords—concerns that I would share if I were in their position—I believe that a good way forward will be found. Brompton Cemetery is subject to a massive programme of improvement with an HLF grant, and those kinds of things will, I am sure, continue. I hope that the noble Lord opposite will withdraw his amendment and that, subject to the Minister satisfactorily answering the questions that have been put forward in the debate, the order can be approved.