East Kent Maternity Services: Independent Investigation

Debate between Lord Berkeley of Knighton and Lord Markham

Monday 24th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for her question; I know this is an area in which she has longstanding interest and expertise. She refers to embedding compassionate care and, perhaps like all of us, I am surprised to learn that, unfortunately, we may need training in this area; but I agree that it needs to be done because it is fundamental. A culture and leadership programme has been put in place, and we have set up national guardians, the idea being that everyone in every trust has the freedom to speak up. There are 800 of them as of today. I take this issue seriously and I commit—if I am here—to come back within four to six months to report to the House on the progress made, as requested.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, all too often we hear sentiments of regret and apology—“we have learnt lessons”; “it must not happen again”—and of course, in a sense, what else can you say? My noble friend’s suggestion of someone with specialist knowledge overseeing this is very helpful, but does the Minister agree that this is another area where we have to encourage people to whistle-blow? It is not a term I like much, because it suggests something which is not pleasant, but very often there are people who are alarmed and think something is wrong, but who are too frightened to speak out. If we could foster a culture where that fear is diminished and people feel able to speak out, and that they should, we might get much earlier warning.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I agree, and if I may I would like to quote Dr Bill Kirkup in the report:

“Clinicians should not have to live in fear”


where “honest clinical errors” are made. That is exactly the point: we need to introduce a culture whereby people feel able to do that. He goes on to blame systemic failures in leadership, a point that the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, made, and which is very pertinent here. We are talking about honest mistakes. Everyone wants to do a good job and tries do a good job; it is where they feel that they cannot bring up and honestly discuss those issues that we have a systemic problem, so I agree that it begins and ends with the leadership.