Assisted Dying Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Berkeley of Knighton and Lord Blair of Boughton

Friday 16th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton]

As in so many things, there is a line here which is difficult to draw. However, doctors in this House have privately told me of occasions when they have treated people with appalling pain in a way that they knew was likely to finish their life. It is very hard to put it more precisely. They would not guarantee that it did because, as we have heard from the medical profession, nobody can guarantee anything. No doctor here can tell us when we are going to die; they can say only, “This is the likelihood”, so I cannot give the noble and right reverend Lord a definitive answer. Everybody keeps saying that we must have clarity but there is no clarity about dying or pain relief. That is the whole point of this. What I can say, which is germane to the argument at the moment, is that we need at least six months to be able to discuss these things calmly and give people the feeling that they can plan ahead. In fact, that should rule out the bronchial infections we have been talking about because they would not be considered part of the terminal disease. It is a question of planning and so many people have said, “I want this option at the end of my life”. Who are we to deny it?

[Lord Blair of Boughton (CB)]

My Lords, I declare an interest in that I was a member of the Commission on Assisted Dying, chaired by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer. I want to respond to Amendments 17 and 21 by mentioning specifically that at the conclusion of the two years in which we heard evidence, our initial position was that this prognosis period should be 12 months. We based that on the GMC guidance to which the noble Lord, Lord Warner, has just referred. It was based on the time at which a doctor could begin to discuss end-of-life care with his or her patient. We decided to reduce the period to six months because we thought that this decision was even more dramatic than the 12-month position of possibly dying. Now that we are into six months, we are much closer.

With all respect, it seems that the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, has made the right point in relation to these amendments. We are looking at this from the wrong end. As the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, has just said, there is no certainty but this is aimed at those individuals who themselves believe, with mental capacity, that what lies ahead of them in suffering and indignity is unbearable to them. It may not be unbearable to somebody else but, for them, it is unbearable and they want to have a discussion. We have been told about people who are going to recover because a new treatment will appear. These are people of mental capacity who are making clear judgments. Is it very likely that those people, if they start to feel better, will say, “No, I still want to die because I decided that I wanted to a little while ago although I now feel better”? That is a completely nonsensical position.

There is one provision of this Bill that people do not seem to notice. In Oregon, when the decision is made, the medicine is handed to the patient and he or she wanders off and puts it in the cupboard. That is not the case in the Bill. The medicine, such as it is, will be in a pharmacy. It will not be released to the patient until everybody is absolutely clear that all the processes have been gone through and that the person still has a settled determination to end their own life. It will then be released to a medical practitioner or nurse and if that patient does not take it within 24 hours, it is not left in the house. It goes back to the pharmacy and the discussion starts again. These are reasonable provisions. There is the idea that we should tie it to the uncertainty of a medical prognosis. We have to have some limits but, after two years of deliberation and knowing the GMC guidelines, six months struck those of us in the commission as a reasonable compromise. I recommend it to the House.