Rail Ticket Offices

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Excerpts

Wednesday 12th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government have an ongoing commitment to simplify the fare structure and we are continuing to do so. The Rail Minister has engaged extensively and directly with accessibility groups and will continue to do so. We are also engaging with the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee to ensure that we hear its views as well.

As I said in answer to a previous question, 99% of tickets can be bought through a ticket vending machine or online, and members of staff will be around to help anybody who has any problems in buying their tickets.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister know that the delay repay system, which I referred to in a question last week, often rewards people with vouchers from the companies? They often will not put money into your account. You are able to cash in those vouchers only at offices that sell railway tickets, so we could be in a very difficult situation here. If the Minister needs to write to me about this, I would quite understand.

Network Rail: Ely Area Capacity Enhancement Programme

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Excerpts

Wednesday 5th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I do not recognise the figure that the noble Lord cites. It is important that we reassess our business cases based on revised travel patterns as they are now, and that has an impact on the business case—but, as I say, we are reviewing them and decisions will be made in due course.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, will the Minister comment on, or at least look at, the “delay repay” scheme which is, on the face of it, a very good idea. The specific problem is that if you are delayed by a regional company by, say, 20 minutes and then by a major company coming into London, it is very hard to make a claim as the form stands. Does the first company pay for the whole thing? Does the second company pay for it? I found negotiating the link—which is, as I say, attractive—extremely difficult. I wish I did not have to resort to it as often as I do but, sadly, in this country it is quite often very necessary.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I was not aware of that issue. I will take it back to my department and, if the noble Lord will provide me further information, I will of course investigate.

Hitachi Rail: Rail Travel Disruption

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Excerpts

Wednesday 19th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am greatly relieved that my noble friend had a reasonable journey to London this week; I do not think I could have coped with another bad journey. I reassure him that LNER’s timetable will be in place until 7 June. As I am sure the noble Lord knows, this is to take into account the east coast upgrade works at King’s Cross.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, it is good to hear that things are getting back to normal. Has it taught us anything about how we ought to prepare for delays in the future? After all, these lines are incredibly important to business, as well as to ordinary people going about their daily lives. Secondly, have the Government made any assessment of the degree to which journey times are currently being affected?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am not aware that we have made an assessment of journey times but, given that the timetables are pretty much back to normal, albeit with fewer services, I expect that the journey times are probably about the same. With regard to the lessons that we have learned, I refer the noble Lord to my previous answer about the report that the ORR is preparing on this. I am sure that all noble Lords will look at that with interest.

Rail Disruption: Social and Economic Impacts

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Excerpts

Thursday 13th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Of course, we are in conversations with Hitachi, and we welcome its decision to put safety first and take the trains out of service while we properly understand what is going on. As noble Lords will be aware, 122 Hitachi trains are procured via the intercity express programme, while the remaining 60 are under conventional rolling stock leases. We will look into what potential compensation may be forthcoming from Hitachi, but the train operating companies are offering refunds to their passengers for cancelled services.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, the noble Baroness and I were in happy agreement recently in your Lordships’ House about the fact that it was not necessary to copy France in limiting domestic air travel here because cities such as Manchester are closer and well connected by fast intercity services. However, of course, this utterly depends on reliable service—so is the Minister concerned that unreliability will inevitably force travellers back into their cars and on to still more polluting airlines?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

No one wants to see a vast modal shift towards cars, but I accept that, in certain circumstances, when we have a situation such as this, that will occur. However, it is a very rare occurrence for this sort of wide-ranging manufacturing or other fault to be found in the make-up of the units. I am convinced that the Hitachi manufacturers are doing all that they can to get these units back on the rails, and I believe that services will be back to normal in the medium term.

Domestic Air Travel

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Excerpts

Tuesday 20th April 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is quite right that we need an aviation sector strong enough to be able to invest in decarbonisation for the future. Alongside the aviation industry, the Government are investing in the Aerospace Technology Institute, which is leading work on the delivery of zero-emission aircraft. This includes FlyZero, a £15 million project that will last for 12 months and is an in-depth study into the potential for zero-emission aircraft by 2030.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, given the Prime Minister’s very welcome endorsement of climate control, does the Minister agree that the statistic that on a similar route an aircraft emits 77% more CO₂ than a train is clearly striking? On the other hand, does she also agree that France will probably scrap only five routes as a result of this initiative, so in this country—depending, as we have heard, on the efficiency of trains—there are sadly not many routes to which this initiative would apply?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord is quite right; I have looked at this and there are probably three routes to which this would apply—for Manchester, Leeds Bradford and Exeter. Our expectation is that many passengers travelling on those domestic routes would be making an international connection, so even in France their flights would not be banned. This Government do not propose to ban domestic flights; we propose investing in high-speed rail and ensuring that our aviation sector as a whole contributes to decarbonisation.

Rail Fares: Flexi-season Tickets

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Excerpts

Thursday 4th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is trying to push me a little further every time. I cannot say whether it will be a national scheme or whether we will have competitive schemes from different rail operators. Certainly, a national scheme would be simpler for the passenger, so each option will have advantages and disadvantages. We are looking at those at this time. Smart ticketing, which I think is the digital solution that my noble friend refers to, is at the heart of what we want to achieve. We really need to get to a stage where we do not have paper tickets; we must have smart ticketing systems that can cope with season tickets or, indeed, any ticket at all.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, in this part of mid-Wales, just about the only way for many people to get to Birmingham, Manchester or London is to take the beautiful Heart of Wales line, which then goes up to Manchester. The problem, as I see it, quite apart from the fact that you sometimes have to flag down the train or tell the driver when you want to get off—not an intercity problem—is that the fares and timetable are not always co-ordinated to allow an affordable way of commuting to these cities. Will the Government look at this when they are talking to the companies? Indeed, will they talk to their own people about how we could make this work better?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Train services and fares are, of course, devolved in Wales, but I recognise the noble Lord’s point about passengers who want to go from Wales to England for work, for example. I encourage him to raise this issue with Sir Peter Hendy in his union connectivity review, because it is really important for people who need to travel for employment reasons that the means of travel are there in terms of the services, but also that the fares fit as well.

International Travel

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Excerpts

Wednesday 9th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The international travel corridors are not just airline corridors; they are corridors for all modes. As my noble friend will know, to cope with current demand, airlines have been changing their schedules far more frequently than previously, which was twice a year. I am aware that there are small issues occasionally with Test and Trace, and of course we are working on those and looking to improve them where problems arise. We must remember that the vast majority of people are able to get tested very quickly and get their result very quickly. My noble friend also mentioned the devolved Administrations. I believe I have gone as far as I can on that one—it is up to the devolved nations to decide. Any interpretation of data is always going to be subjective and they have reached a different decision from the UK Government as it applies to England. UK citizens in the devolved nations, and indeed in England, need to be aware and understand that these things can change.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I have two points. I commend the Government’s idea of testing people in quarantine to shorten the period, but following on from the previous speaker, how is that to be done if we are not to send people in quarantine out to testing centre, sometimes 50 miles away? Have the Government thought about how they will overcome that? Secondly, we have heard a lot about damage to the aviation industry and to tourism. As the Minister knows, there is also huge damage to the creative industries, which cannot manage tours. I realise that it is one step forward, but being forewarned is always a good thing. I encourage the Government to think ahead and talk to people representing the creative industries about how they might overcome this problem when things ease up a bit.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I know that my colleagues in the DCMS are well engaged with the creative industries and understand the challenges that they face. Certainly, as a roads Minister, I understand the knock-on impacts on, for example, the road haulage industry, which assists in putting on some of the big events. It has had a really devastating effect on those industries, and we are well aware of that. The noble Lord mentioned leaving home to get a test. Unless you get a home test, whether you have been travelling or not, and whether you are symptomatic or asymptomatic, you will probably have to leave your home to get a test. That is why the people doing the tests at testing centres have all the appropriate protection and therefore minimise the risk of transmission.

HS2

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Excerpts

Wednesday 11th March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, of course HS2 should be built, but it must be HS2 as a whole—the full route—and it must continue through to Scotland, which we hope will still be part of the United Kingdom by the time that gets done.

There is a three-pronged argument for HS2. The first argument is that of levelling up the prosperity of the north. Secondly, there is the environmental argument. In 2018, the transport sector accounted for 33% of all CO₂ emissions in our country, and most of that came from road transport. Electrified rail is significantly cleaner than road, air or sea traffic. Research by Greenguage 21 on behalf of the Campaign to Protect Rural England, the Campaign for Better Transport and the RSPB showed that HS2 emissions per journey will be 73% lower than for those by road or air.

Thirdly, of course, there is the capacity argument: existing routes are full and getting fuller. As far back as 2014, 26% of morning peak trains on this route arriving in London were over capacity. We need a new long-distance, high-speed line to free up existing lines for commuters on shorter routes.

HS2 has been under sustained attack, and despite the positive response of the Oakervee review, the project is still subject to scrutiny, as the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, set out. The aim is largely to reduce costs—that is scrutiny—but there is environmental criticism as well. However, any attempt to reduce costs is likely to involve changes to the features specified in this debate: the route, the speed or the station locations. Critics of HS2 have often concentrated on the apparently poor cost-benefit ratio showing a poor business case for HS2. My noble friend Lady Kramer, in the debate we had following the publication of the Oakervee review, exposed how narrow that cost-benefit analysis actually is. There have been criticisms for years of the way in which we do our transport cost-benefit analysis. The analyses of rail schemes do not take into account the regeneration potential of such schemes. It is time for the Government to move on and adopt a new means of analysis so that we take account of potential regeneration. Other countries do so when planning their infrastructure, and we should be doing this on a firmer basis.

The danger is that any attempt to reduce the costs of HS2 will take the easy solution and simply curtail the route, but Northern Powerhouse Rail’s plans are designed to integrate with HS2. One is dependent on the other, so that is not an option. Only by building the full route will we maximise the potential of HS2 to, for example, replace internal flights. Not only will emissions be 76% lower than those of an internal flight but it will also be able to compete on journey time and cost. There are examples on the continent of rail replacing flights very effectively where high-speed lines have been built.

We can find plenty of European examples of high-speed rail regenerating cities and creating jobs, such as Lille, Lyon and Zaragoza. In the UK, our one high-speed line—the short stretch of HS1—has had a catalytic role in enabling regeneration around its stations. It has been an all-round success, with reduced journey times, increased capacity, reduced overcrowding, improved punctuality and reliability and the encouragement of a modal shift from car to rail.

I want to address the specific issues set out in the title of this debate: the speed, the stations and the route. First, speed costs money. HS2 is designed to travel at 400 kilometres per hour, but this costs a lot of money. Compare that with, for example, the speed of 325 kilometres per hour achieved on the TGV. Evidence to the Economic Affairs Committee suggested that reducing the speed would reduce the costs by £1.25 billion and the benefits by £6 billion. I do not know whether that is 100% accurate, but even if it is generally in the right ballpark, it is difficult to justify much reduction in speed unless you can be absolutely sure that there will be a significant reduction in cost.

There are some really controversial issues to do with the stations. It is worth pointing out that most high-speed lines in other countries do not link into the centre of the capital city. I have always believed that using Old Oak Common as a terminus is a reasonable approach, certainly in the early years. It would reduce the amount of disruption in the Euston area and the cost of regenerating that station. Some £2 billion of the increased cost of HS2 is due to the increased cost allocated for Euston station alone. Of course, the capacity of Old Oak Common would have to be increased beyond what is planned at the moment. The original reason for the Euston link was to link with HS1, but that direct link has already been abandoned, so that is one argument down for continuing the concept of building the Euston station interchange immediately.

I would like to put in a quick word for the Crewe link. On behalf of the people of north and mid Wales, I am very keen indeed that that link is maintained. It is important that every nation of Great Britain benefits from HS2. That link to Crewe is essential for railway efficiency in north and mid Wales.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

Hear, hear.

[Baroness Randerson]

I am very pleased to hear that support from the Chamber. Can the Minister tell us whether final decisions have been made about the Sheffield station? I remember there was a huge debate about its location, and I have not heard the resolution on that.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, referred to the importance of being prepared to change the route. It is important to bear in mind that significant changes have already been made, with many miles of tunnelling having been introduced as a result of the work of environmental campaigners. That is an extremely good success story. However, the costs of tunnelling are much greater than those of building on the surface.

In conclusion, I believe we need to get on with this. We lag badly behind other countries on high-speed rail. I suggest that the Government take the advice of the Institution of Civil Engineers to work closely with rail industries in France, Spain and Germany, where there have been hugely successful high-speed lines. I fundamentally disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett. We has to take the umbrella approach to the environment and take the view that we have to preserve the integrity of the environment as a whole. Only by building an environmentally efficient, modern railway line will we get people out of their cars, off planes and on to the trains.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I wrote some of this brief, so I feel a little offended. I do not have that particular piece of data to hand, which I am disappointed about, but I will certainly write to the noble Lord when I can get it from my officials at the department.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton]

My Lords, there is one little update on the question of Crewe, which the Minister mentioned. It is worth reflecting on the fact that at the moment, the Wye and the Severn being flooded means that people trying to get to London from Wales probably cannot get there via Shrewsbury and Hereford, which means that they are forced to go to Crewe. That is quite a significant point.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I agree with the noble Lord: that is a significant point. This new train line is also about adding resilience. Now, if the west coast main line goes down, as I believe it did yesterday—for which my apologies—there is no plan B. Therefore, it would certainly give the people of Wales a plan B to get them either from London to Wales or vice versa.

The integrated rail plan terms of reference were published in late February—they may have been published on a Friday, but this Government work on Fridays. The Secretary of State aims to publish the plan by the end of the year. We want to get this right. It is important that we get it done, but it must be right. The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, made a couple of references to the Oakervee Review and various conclusions therein. Conclusion 11 recommended that we undertake a circa six-month study of the 2b scope in the context of the Midlands Engine Rail and Northern Powerhouse Rail proposals, so it is one of Oakervee’s conclusions. Conclusion 12 recommends that the Government consider smaller Bill phases

“to allow easier scrutiny of proposals in Parliament and faster construction”

so we may look at that. To do the phase 2b Bill in one go will be a challenge, but I am sure it is doable and that we have the stamina to do so. However, if it would be helpful, it might be a good idea to have smaller Bills. The Government’s next steps are therefore consistent with what Oakervee suggested.

On the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, on the route, the Secretary of State has committed to delivering HS2 to Leeds via the east Midlands; we have no plans to route HS2 trains from London to Leeds by Manchester.

On the specific issue of Leeds station, the HS2 station design for Leeds aims to integrate an HS2 station with the existing conventional station to allow for easy access and interchange between HS2, Northern Powerhouse Rail and local services across West Yorkshire and the north.

There was an original plan in Leeds to locate the HS2 station towards the south, but work to review the options further in 2014-15 recognised that priority should be given to greater interchange.

Drones: Consultation Response

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Excerpts

Monday 7th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg]

Gatwick used a number of methods and different layers were involved in addressing the incident, including UK technology, but my noble friend highlights a very good point—that this is an international challenge. He is quite right that Israel has well-developed technology in this area, and we will continue to work with all our international partners to ensure that we have the best mitigation against future drone attacks.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, I want to make two points. I completely appreciate that it is easy to be wise after the event in terms of Gatwick, for example, but the Department for Transport’s paper dated July 2018, which is quite recent, was still talking about only a one-kilometre exclusion zone. At the time, many pilots said that that was insane. After all, if you think about how long it takes to land an aircraft or to get an aircraft up into the air, the distance covered is miles more than one kilometre. Therefore, I am very glad to hear that the zone is to be extended. Is advice from pilots being taken on this? Some airports need bigger exclusion zones; some need smaller ones.

My other point was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Pickles, and concerns prisons. Will we have exclusion zones around prisons? The number of offences in prison areas mentioned in the Department for Transport’s paper is quite high.

[Baroness Sugg]

The noble Lord is quite right that in July we brought in a one-kilometre aerodrome restriction, but that was always meant as an initial measure. We did not have any protection beforehand, and that is the case with many countries. It was an interim measure and we said at the time that we would work very closely with the aviation industry, pilots’ unions, including BALPA, and NATS to question whether the restriction zone was large enough. We have come to the conclusion that it is not. Obviously hundreds of thousands of people live within a five-kilometre boundary of airports, so we need to make sure that we have the right exclusion zone. However, we have had conversations about this matter and have now seen evidence that, in order to ensure safety, we need to extend the restriction, and that is exactly what we are doing.

The noble Lord also rightly points out the issues around prisons, and the Ministry of Justice and the Home Office are working very closely on those. Last year they launched Operation Trenton to work together to intercept drones and track down the criminals behind them. To date, there have been 17 convictions related to drone activity and that work will continue, but it is the same challenge. The correct technology does not exist at the moment, although it is being developed very quickly. As a department and as a Government, we have invested in the extension of that technology and there are lots of interesting commercial opportunities too. As the technology develops, it will help airports and prisons, as well as this building and other important infrastructure.

Laser Misuse (Vehicles) Bill [HL]

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 9th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions today and for their broad support for these measures. I shall aim to answer as many questions as I can. If I am not able to address every issue, I will follow up in writing.

On the types of lasers, we have not defined lasers in the Bill because our legal advice is that the term would be understood and there would not be difficulty in prosecuting based on whether or not a light source was a laser. The offence would cover all forms of lasers, including laser pens, pointers and laser guns; and the term “beam” would cover laser pulses and bursts, as the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, mentioned.

The offence specifically covers lasers rather than any light source because of the risk of inadvertently catching normal and acceptable light sources, such as car headlights, which might dazzle and distract the pilot or the driver of another vehicle. Lasers are the predominant risk. The police have not raised the same concern in relation to other lights, such as strobe lights, as they have with lasers.

The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, asked whether Clause 1(8) should refer to an individual rather than a pilot. We have sought to capture those persons who are in control of the vehicle, and in the case of an aircraft these will be the pilots. We specifically refer to the pilots monitoring the control of the aircraft to capture co-pilots. When a laser beam is shone or directed at an aircraft, the light often tends to refract and fill the cockpit with light, so it is difficult to imagine another member of the crew being dazzled or distracted but not the pilots.

Many noble Lords raised the definition of a journey. Similar concerns were raised during the Committee stage of the then Vehicle Technology and Aviation Bill, which referred to “flights” for aviation rather than “journeys”. We have taken on board those concerns and amended the Bill to ensure that all parts of the journeys are covered. “Journey” will bear its natural meaning. It is intended to start when the vehicle is ready to commence its journey and end when it comes to a final stop at its destination. That includes taxiing in the case of an aircraft and for all vehicles will cover temporary stops along the way such as stops at train stations, bus stops, traffic lights or, indeed, when waiting to take off.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

For clarification, the Oxford English Dictionary defines “journey” as the act of travelling from one place to another. The point made by several noble Lords, including my noble and gallant friend Lord Craig, and the noble Lords, Lord Balfe and Lord Rosser, is that this is still a little vague in regard to, for example, a flying lesson, which starts in one place and returns to the same place; helicopter pilots, who initially only go up and come back down again; or even a driving lesson, which departs and returns to the same place. Would the Minister comment further on that?

[Baroness Sugg]

I thank the noble Lord for his intervention. Trying to define all the different types of journey which may take place is complicated. As I say, our advice is that “journey” is the best way to describe it, but I will take the noble Lord’s comments away and consider them ahead of the Committee stage.

The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, also mentioned horse-drawn carriages, which I am afraid will not be covered by the Bill. We have not seen any evidence of a problem, so horse-riders will not be covered either. We work closely with the British Horse Society and other organisations but, as I say, they have not raised any safety concerns. However, we will keep the issue under review and perhaps follow it up with them.

We have consulted carefully with the Ministry of Defence on the Bill and indeed with the Military Aviation Authority. The offence will cover both military and civilian vehicles, and the Bill has received support from Ministers in the Ministry of Defence. We will continue to work closely with the MoD and the MAA, some of whose representatives are also members of the UK Laser Working Group, which meets regularly.

On licensing and import controls, as I mentioned in my earlier speech, we have committed to providing additional support for enforcement activities around the import of lasers. We are working to deliver more effective labelling and to promote public awareness. However, after considering the evidence, we do not intend to introduce a licensing regime.