Water Industry

Debate between Lord Benyon and Gavin Shuker

Tuesday 5th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Gavin Shuker]

What a fantastic set-up for the speech I am about to give, which is about the Government’s record in the past few years. I freely accept that the hon. Gentleman was not a member of the Government at that time, but he obviously voted on many of the issues that I want to talk about.

It is crucial that we in this House have a proper understanding of the impact that the Bill that is being sold to us will have on the consumer bills that are being levied on many of our constituents right now. Let us be clear: no one was talking about water affordability or Government action to reform the water industry to deliver for customers and not just for shareholders until the Leader of the Opposition gave his living standards speech in Brighton back in September.

[Richard Benyon]

rose—

[Gavin Shuker]

I am happy to take an intervention from the former water Minister.

[Richard Benyon]

I hesitate to rise, because I could just sit here and enjoy the hon. Gentleman’s speech. He and I had endless discussions about affordability when he was in his Front-Bench role, so he knows that he need only read the water White Paper to see that we were concerned about that issue, and he knows that the underlying truth of the Water Bill is that, in order to keep bills low, we need to make sure that we have an industry fit for the future, which is all about affordability and protecting our constituents. He also knows, therefore, that it is ridiculous to suggest that this issue has appeared just in the past few days.

[Gavin Shuker]

The hon. Gentleman makes a passionate defence of his own record in post.

Let us look at some of the specific measures on which this Government had the opportunity to work and legislate but deliberately chose not to do so. First, there is bad debt. I was interested to read a copy of the Secretary of State’s letter to the water companies—sent out today, curiously enough, purely coincidentally—which talked about bad debt. I thought, “Fantastic! At last this Government have adopted the right position on bad debt.” Each household has to pay £15 or so because some people cannot pay and will not pay, and that money is dumped on the bills of consumers who step up and do pay.

On energy bills, is it not interesting that there is a provision that requires landlords to give companies their tenants’ details so that they can reclaim the money? On reading the letter, I thought, “Fantastic. At last the Government have responded to the Opposition’s calls to make the water situation analogous with that of energy.” However, the letter only makes a firm threat to look at the issue in more detail if the companies themselves do not voluntarily make progress on the provision.

My position and that of my party is clear: bad debt as a result of those people who will not or cannot pay dumps an additional cost on every household, so it would make sense to implement the provision. The Government could have taken that action. We made the case for it, but they have had no interest in it until now.

That is not the only issue. Government Members and the press have today mentioned the social tariff. I was the lead Opposition Member on the Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill Committee. We sought to amend the Bill so that every water company operating in the UK had to do one simple thing, namely offer a social tariff to those people who find it hard to pay their bills or who find themselves in a situation where they cannot pay for the service provided. The Government chose to vote down that proposal and Government Members voted against it. Instead, they favoured a voluntary approach: if water companies wanted to introduce a social tariff, they could. It is amazing how few water companies have actually done so.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Benyon and Gavin Shuker

Thursday 4th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Richard Benyon]

I agree entirely. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for pointing out that we have addressed an intrinsic, long-term unfairness for people in the south-west. We have proved that we are doing that not just for today, but for the long term.

[Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)]

We have a proposal from this Government, not a deal. The Secretary of State said that

“this announcement means that people no longer need to live in fear of being uninsurable”.

However, all band H properties are excluded, as are so-called “genuinely uninsurable” properties and all properties built after 2009. Given that it has taken the Minister three years to get to this point, will he now admit that his proposals do not provide universal access to cover?

[Richard Benyon]

What an uncharacteristically graceless question from the hon. Gentleman. When the deal was announced from the Dispatch Box last week, there was an audible sigh of relief, not only from Government Back Benchers, but from Opposition Back Benchers. The deal has been welcomed and I am sure that the hon. Gentleman knows in his heart that it is a good deal and one that will last for the long term.

Flood Insurance

Debate between Lord Benyon and Gavin Shuker

Tuesday 26th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Richard Benyon]

If I can, I will try to give way in a moment.

We have recently announced a flood resilience community pathfinder scheme for Cornwall and a number of other parts of the country. In my hon. Friend’s case, £476,000 will be spent in Cornwall.

The hon. Member for Luton South (Gavin Shuker) said that the statement of principles was universal insurance.

[Gavin Shuker]

indicated dissent.

[Richard Benyon]

Perhaps that is not what the hon. Gentleman said. The statement of principles is not universal —not by a long chalk—which is part of the problem. Everything he said in his quote from the Prime Minister is absolutely right, and I thank him for pointing it out.

When Conservatives were in opposition in 2008, it was agreed that a successor to the statement of principles would be required. The previous Government agreed that a market could emerge after the end of the agreement. The statement of principles says that there will be no need for specific agreements after June 2013. All hon. Members disagree with that and believe that we need a follow-up.

My hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton, to whom I want to give time to make a winding-up speech, asked about the Government’s view of a flood mutual, which is an important question. We are looking very closely at the proposal, which is a possible alternative to “Flood Re”. We are working closely with those who are making that proposal.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Benyon and Gavin Shuker

Thursday 7th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Richard Benyon]

My hon. Friend has a great many constituents who live in flood risk, and we want to be able to assure them that there is something that will continue after the end of the statement of principles. As I said to the hon. Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood), the new system is better because it will not only be available to all properties that are at flood risk but will have an affordability element. We have in mind my hon. Friend’s constituents and many others around the country who live in flood risk, but we are also responsible to the taxpayer. We want to make sure that what we are doing is fair to the taxpayer and fair to the person living in flood risk.

[Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Building Societies Association has said that the consequences of failing to get a deal would be “grave”. Potential buyers would find it difficult or impossible to get a mortgage, loan book values would drop, capital requirements would rise, and there would be less money to lend in the real economy. Is sales blight on 200,000 properties an acceptable price to pay for this Government’s inaction?

[Richard Benyon]

The hon. Gentleman is wrong when he says that there is inaction; I can assure him that there is an awful lot of action. Alongside the negotiations that have been going on, we have been producing documents such as one that has been highly recommended by the British Institute of Insurance Brokers Association: “Obtaining flood insurance in high risk areas”. We are also assisting people in flood-risk measures they take for their property at household level so that that will be reflected in the premium. The hon. Gentleman is right to be concerned about the potential impact on mortgages and lenders, and that is one of the main drivers towards the quick result we want to get in this matter.

Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill

Debate between Lord Benyon and Gavin Shuker

Wednesday 14th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Richard Benyon]

I agree with my hon. Friend. It would be wrong to put in the Bill requirements that might or might not suit today’s world, but that would be wrong for the future. The Government, in negotiations with private sector companies and through the planning process, are involved at many levels in the development of such contracts. We can impose our desires and our will. The companies and the Government can be held to account if they fail on these matters. I believe that to prescribe to such a level of detail would be wrong.

Thames Water is holding the launch for a jobs and skills report in the House on 20 March, to which MPs are invited. Its jobs and skills forum will promote the work that it is carrying out in this area. Thames Water will also look to gain from the experiences of other large-scale infrastructure projects. It is right for the Government to support and encourage Thames Water in those efforts.

Apprenticeships are central to ensuring that our work force are equipped to help build economic growth. There are huge opportunities in the project, if we can embrace them, for Londoners who are seeking work and training to be involved in a really high-profile scheme for a number of years. They can then take the benefits into other sectors and industries. However, we do not feel the need for further legislation to provide that encouragement. Nor is it necessary or appropriate to require the terms and conditions involved to be included in a statutory instrument. For that reason, I ask hon. Members not to press the amendments.

[Gavin Shuker]

I thank all Members who have participated in the debate. I listened carefully to what the Minister said, and I am slightly concerned that he and the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) have tried to talk up amendment 3, a modest amendment, into a big, overbearing piece of regulation. It is not. It would not just apply to this project but protect us in future, and I gave a clear commitment to the Thames tunnel throughout my speech.

I listened to what the Minister said about apprenticeships, and I believe that his heart is in absolutely the right place. We will all want to pull together to ensure that the Thames tunnel project, which I am certain will go ahead, employs apprentices and ensures that there is a legacy for London. I will therefore not press amendment 3, but I do seek to press amendment 2 to a Division.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Benyon and Gavin Shuker

Thursday 1st March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Richard Benyon]

The hon. Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) made a very good speech yesterday, in which he pointed out the folly of the easy fix that people constantly suggest to me: building a vast pipeline from his constituency to mine. We know that that is prohibitively expensive, but we can get greater interconnectivity between water companies, and thus water flowing from areas where it is plentiful to areas where it is not.

[Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)]

If tackling drought, conserving water and reforming abstraction are so important, why has the Secretary of State delayed her own Bill?

[Richard Benyon]

The hon. Gentleman presupposes what is—or is not—in the Queen’s Speech. I have to confess that I am not privy to that; the Queen will announce the contents. We have said that the Bill will be available for pre-legislative scrutiny, but we do not need a Bill to deal with many of the issues that we are discussing on the drought. We can introduce the abstraction incentive mechanism—a bit of a techy issue, but one that can make a difference right now to the sustainability of water supplies.

Flood Defences (Exeter)

Debate between Lord Benyon and Gavin Shuker

Wednesday 22nd February 2012 Westminster Hall

[Richard Benyon]

The right hon. Gentleman, who was a Minister in DEFRA, will understand that these things are done in spending rounds. Very few flood schemes go from conception to commissioning in one year, which is why we base it over a spending review period. The excellent chairman of the Environment Agency will confirm—our figures have been sent to the Public Accounts Committee—that there is a 6% difference. The last Chancellor in the previous Labour Government, of which the right hon. Gentleman was a member, announced shortly before the general election that there would be 50% capital cuts in budgets. I will be generous to the right hon. Gentleman and say that if his party had won the general election it would not have cut the capital budget by 50%, but it would certainly have cut it. I think that he would have also implemented all the recommendations of the Pitt review into those very damaging floods in 2007, part of which form the basis of the partnership funding system that we have introduced, and part of which resulted in the implementation of local flood risk management through lead local flood authorities. That is very important for communities such as his, and I hope that we can work together constructively in the coming months to achieve a result for those people.

It is the nature of flood and coastal defence investment that there are always more projects than national budgets can afford at any one time—there always have been and, sadly, always will be. Some 5.2 million homes are at risk from flooding and we want to protect as many of them as possible. Funding has always needed to be prioritised, and that would be the case even if capital budgets had not been reduced in the spending review.

As we have heard today, the Environment Agency is developing an option for Exeter that is expected to cost £25 million over its lifetime. Under the new partnership funding system, that might attract approximately £13 million funded by the general taxpayer. That leaves a shortfall of £12 million. Many schemes are funded totally by the taxpayer. What we have now in our partnership funding scheme is a totally transparent system. For years, communities such as the right hon. Gentleman’s wanted schemes like this to go ahead, always believing that total funding by the taxpayer would be available, but always just missing out and never knowing why—now they can see a transparent funding system.

The right hon. Gentleman talked about the “independent” Environment Agency. It is part of DEFRA; it is the Government in terms of spending flood money. The people in the Environment Agency are the experts. They have developed that transparent funding system on the lines of the recommendations of the Pitt review and have come up with the scoring for what can be achieved for his community.

Exeter is an excellent example of why we have had to change the funding approach and introduce the partnership funding scheme. The new approach follows recommendations made by Sir Michael Pitt’s review of the 2007 flooding, in which he said that local communities should be allowed and encouraged to invest in flood risk management measures so that more can be done and more schemes can be introduced. He also said that future investment plans should not simply assume that the cost of flood alleviation is met centrally. Those recommendations were accepted fully by the Government. If we had carried on with the old system, we would be placing an ever-increasing burden on the general taxpayer to meet the long-term costs of flood defence alone. Those costs are expected to rise considerably with our changing climate, as the right hon. Gentleman predicted in his speech.

The old system artificially constrained how much could be done in each town and city because Government funding has always been, and always will be, limited. The old system meant that schemes were either funded in full, or not at all, based on top-down decisions. Many worthwhile schemes, such as in Exeter, were knocked back for funding, in many cases without a realistic prospect of ever going forward. At a cost of £25 million, the Exeter scheme would have been in that category, doomed never to have had a high enough priority for full funding. Transparency and greater local involvement is at the heart of the new partnership funding system. Instead of meeting the full costs of a limited number of schemes, national funds are spread further in order to achieve more overall. Many schemes will continue to be fully funded, where value for taxpayers’ money is sufficiently strong.

In other cases, such as Exeter, national funding is available to part-fund the project. This approach creates space within the system for local and private contributions to help pay for the significant benefits to land, property, infrastructure and other assets realised when defences are built. There are potentially many sources of funding to tap in to, both public and private.

Last year, the community of Morpeth found itself in a similar position to Exeter. The proposed scheme in that area did not meet the old criteria for full funding, so it was deferred, potentially indefinitely. Under the new approach, the Government were able to meet around half of the costs of the scheme. Leadership was shown by Northumberland county council, meaning that the scheme is now fully funded and will proceed in the coming months, with half the money—coincidentally, up to £12 million—met from local sources. This example shows the power of the new system, and there are many others that I would like to point to; this is important in addressing one of the right hon. Gentleman’s points.

In south Derbyshire, Nestlé contributed £1.7 million to a £7 million scheme to protect 1,600 homes and further financial contributions have been made from industry and other means. In other areas, the planning system has been used to unlock schemes, whether through section 106 money or some other form of funding, rather like exception site housing schemes in rural communities. The income from those schemes goes to deal with flood and coastal erosion risk management. In respect of another scheme in York, York city council is finding the money to bring it above the line.

The new system has already helped secure £72 million of external funding for schemes in the next three years—more than 500% higher than during the previous spending period.

[Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Richard Benyon]

If the hon. Gentleman will let me finish this point.

Early indications suggest up to a third more schemes are likely to proceed than if we had kept up the old all-or-nothing system.

[Gavin Shuker]

I am grateful—

Environmental Protection and Green Growth

Debate between Lord Benyon and Gavin Shuker

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Richard Benyon]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend, and I hope that Labour Members were listening to what he said.

[Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)]

rose—

[Richard Benyon]

I will give way, but then I want to make some progress.

[Gavin Shuker]

The Minister is extremely generous in allowing interventions. I was initially trying to be well behaved and not to intervene on him, but I would like to echo the comment that the natural environment White Paper is fine in and of itself. There will be consensus about biodiversity—an issue about which I believe the Minister feels strongly—across the House. The key issue, however, is resource. There are many environmental and local groups applying to get funding to do the things that are set out in the White Paper, but only £7.5 million has been put behind it.

[Richard Benyon]

The hon. Gentleman is talking about our nature improvement areas, and I would be happy to talk further to him about them and about the level of our ambition, which exceeds that of the previous Government. There is no money left, as someone once said when he left a note in a desk. I have to remind the hon. Gentleman of that, but we have made biodiversity and reversing its decline an absolute priority—both for this Department and the Government.