Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Benyon and Fiona O'Donnell

Thursday 26th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Richard Benyon]

Clean air fund measures are locally targeted to reduce PM10s by 10% to 20%. They include green infrastructure, dust suppressants, retrofitted buses and dealing with traffic hot spots where the stop-start of traffic has caused severe or marked increases in air pollution.

[Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)]

Unbelievable! This is the second biggest public health challenge that the country faces, but all we have are excuses and inaction from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. With an estimated 29,000 premature—[Interruption.] We are talking about premature deaths, so I think that Government Members should quieten down. With an estimated 29,000 premature deaths a year in the UK from air pollution, why does the only action taken by DEFRA try to weaken EU laws that seek to protect the public?

[Richard Benyon]

That last point is completely wrong. In fact, there is a meeting next week in Geneva on the measures that we have taken as part of the Gothenburg agreement that will result in further improvements in air quality. There is no doubt that air quality has a marked effect on people’s health, particularly if they suffer from heart or lung conditions. We have begun to improve things, but a big challenge remains in London. The Mayor inherited poor air-quality conditions and, as a result of his strategy, we have begun to see big improvements.

Common Fisheries Policy

Debate between Lord Benyon and Fiona O'Donnell

Thursday 15th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Richard Benyon]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for reminding me of the very good point that she made. I share her view entirely that this is an area where the European Union does not need to tread. We have a successful aquaculture industry in the United Kingdom. We are all aware of the agenda here. Some of the more land-locked countries, which are seeking to access some of the European fisheries money, are interested in developing a competence over aquaculture. I assure her that I am robust in trying to exclude that possibility. How successful I will be remains to be seen.

We remain hopeful that the reformed CFP can build in a robust process to regionalise decision making. That will require agreement not only on issues of legal competence, but on practical processes for co-operation on management decisions with other member states which are transparent and enforceable. We will continue to press for that and will build support with the member states that share our fisheries.

The hon. Member for East Lothian asked when I last met the commissioner. It was just a few weeks ago. I meet her regularly and count her as an ally and a friend. I think she needs friends at the moment. I will be robust in giving our support for what she is trying to do. She needs legal advice as well. There are legal opinions coming from all directions on these matters and we are keen to provide her with ours.

I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran), who made a thoughtful speech. He addressed a serious problem that goes to the heart of the credibility of an industry for which I have the highest regard. We should not minimise in any way the fact that when black fish are sold on the scale that he described, those fish have been stolen from legitimate fishermen. That is a crime of multi-million-pound proportions, and he was both brave and right to state that.

To achieve what we want to, we will require improvements in how we collect data and develop scientific evidence. A number of Members have referred to that. At the moment, the process can often lack robust data or be too narrowly focused on the short term to be credible with fishermen or to help policy makers. A more grown-up relationship is needed between scientists, fishermen and policy makers so that we can gather more effective data on the impact of fishing on the whole marine environment, and build trust. The fisheries science partnership that we have in the UK will help to pave the way to achieving that.

Nearly every Member who spoke referred to discards. I say to the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar—[Interruption.] That pronunciation is the best I can do at this stage of the week, I am afraid. I remind him that more than half the tonnage of discarded fish has absolutely nothing to do with the European Union but is because it is made up of species that we do not eat and for which there is no market. There is a supply chain solution to that if we are imaginative. I am not diminishing the blame that must be apportioned to the system of management that creates the remainder of the discards, and we must not stop trying to deal with that, but more than 50% of discards are because there is no market. Great progress is being made on that, not least by DEFRA, through good projects such as Fishing for the Markets.

I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton mentioned my evidence to the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, in which I said how wrong it would be if we created a system that transferred a problem over the horizon at sea to one of landfill. Through a discard ban or an elimination of discards, we need to progress a supply chain solution to creating new markets for fish.

[Fiona O'Donnell]

Does the Minister also support fishermen in identifying markets overseas? For instance, there is not much of an appetite for cuttlefish at home, but there is in other parts of the world.

[Richard Benyon]

Those who watched Monty Halls’s programme last night will have seen the export of fantastic-quality spider crabs, which we should be eating in this country. We have to develop more eclectic tastes, but that is a debate in itself and I want to press on.

I agree with the Select Committee that we need to get our measures right and proceed carefully in setting targets. However, that has to be done on a fishery-by-fishery basis. I am also mindful that if we equivocate, we could find a thousand reasons why we should not do anything about discards. I believe that the Commission is right, and there should be an absolutely clear determination to move as near to an elimination of discards as we possibly can. That is why we will not sign up to the French declaration next week and why we must go into the next stage of negotiations on discards as robustly as possible to achieve a solution.

The debate on the CFP objectives raises similar challenges in a variety of areas. On the achievement of maximum sustainable yield, for example, I agree that we have to be guided by the best available scientific advice, particularly about complex mixed fisheries, and do so in a credible way. That is why we want clear objectives that are linked to existing commitments and enable us to get the specifics right for each fishery through multi-annual plans. That requires an intelligent approach to getting scientific data and advice. We have some good examples in the UK of partnership working with the industry, and I agree that member states must be more accountable for delivering the data needed to manage fisheries effectively. I appreciate the words of the hon. Member for Brent North about the need to define what we mean by MSY. FMSY is a different target from others, so we must get that right.

The Select Committee is right to sound caution about the Commission’s proposal for transferrable fishing concessions. My hon. Friend the Member for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd) raised that matter with passion. Although I recognise the benefits that a market approach can bring, I want our fishing rights to be managed in an economically rational way, by decisions on the allocation of rights being left to member states. If it were run and organised at that level, we could achieve real results. In certain circumstances, groups of fishermen might invest in an increasing biomass and see the attraction of a transferable fishery concession, which would in turn benefit the marine environment. It is important to look at that, but we should do so with caution, as advised by the Committee’s report.

A number of hon. Members asked who owns quota. I do not want to break with the cross-party consensus of the debate, but I suggest that the hon. Member for East Lothian has a bit of a nerve criticising the Government. We must get a grip on this problem. My Department intends to produce a register of who owns quota. To do that, we are working with producer organisations, which hold much of that information. I am constantly told of celebrities and football clubs that are alleged to own quota, but I have never found evidence of it. As the fishing opportunity should sit with vessels, the situation becomes complicated.

Rio+20 Summit

Debate between Lord Benyon and Fiona O'Donnell

Tuesday 28th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

I should like to start by thanking the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley) for securing this timely debate, and by welcoming the contributions from both sides of the House. These discussions, and the strong parliamentary interest in them, are an important part of informing our approach to the negotiations. The hon. Lady led the debate with real knowledge and power. With the exception of the final speech, there has been fantastic cross-party support today. The hon. Member for East Lothian (Fiona O'Donnell) really read the mood of the House wrongly tonight, and she should reflect on that.

The Chairman of the Select Committee, the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North, articulated a concept that is considered irrelevant and old fashioned in some quarters, but it is one that I believe to be totally relevant to the debate on Rio and on sustainability. It is the concept of stewardship. When we talk about the stewardship of our planet, we are talking about the future for our children and grandchildren—a point that my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer) made particularly well. The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) also made that point. This is the time to get this right. The hon. Member for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead) raised the prospect of Rio+40, and said that it would be a tragedy if we did not put in place the measures that we hope will come from this conference, and did not hold politicians of this generation to their commitments.

Our understanding of the need to green our economy and promote sustainable development has improved dramatically over the past 20 years. It is no longer something that we should do, but something that we need to do for future prosperity. It has been pointed out tonight that more than 1 billion people are living in poverty, that two thirds of the world’s ecosystems are in decline and that climate change will cost up to a quarter of global gross domestic product.

We are well aware of what is at stake here. This has been well articulated by the hon. Members for Gower (Martin Caton) and for Brighton, Pavilion and by my hon. Friends the Members for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes), for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood), for Sherwood and for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith), among many others. The key point is that the UK must and will take a leading role to secure a successful outcome in Rio.

Since our response to the Committee’s report, we have—as the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North said—received the zero draft that will act as the basis of negotiations until June. We also have recommendations from the Secretary-General’s high-level panel on global sustainability, which was launched in London this week. With just four months to go, momentum is building and we are getting a clearer idea of what countries, NGOs and businesses are calling for. I should therefore like to make clear the UK priorities for Rio, which will go some way to addressing concerns raised here today, although I will of course pick up any further points.

I want to see Governments stand up at Rio and make a clear statement—a political declaration—that sustainable development is the only way forward. We need to make it absolutely clear that long-term, sustainable, climate-resilient growth is possible only if we use natural resources sustainably and tackle poverty. In the UK, we have shown our commitment to green growth through a raft of policies and initiatives, including our publication “Enabling the Transition to a Green Economy”, which provides businesses with the certainty and clarity to innovate, invest and grow in a green way.

[Fiona O'Donnell]

rose—

[Richard Benyon]

I want to make a bit of progress, if the hon. Lady will allow me.

We have established the green investment bank with £3 billion-worth of funding. Together with the green deal, it will accelerate green investment by businesses and households. We have introduced a carbon floor price that will come into force from April next year. We have published the natural environment White Paper—the Government’s vision of how to protect and improve the natural environment over the next 50 years—with 92 recommendations for action.

Yesterday morning I stood at the top of the Wiltshire downs with a really enthusiastic group of farmers and people from the local community as we launched one of the nature improvement areas—a really exciting prospect. At Rio, we must ensure that the commitment to green growth is secured at the international level—it needs tangible outcomes—which will help all countries move to a sustainable growth path.

[Fiona O'Donnell]

The Minister cannot have it both ways. He cannot come to this House singing the praises of his Department and then not expect us to hold it accountable for its record at home. Will he give a commitment now to mandatory reporting of carbon emissions?

[Richard Benyon]

I will come on to that. I said a little earlier that the hon. Lady had misread the mood of the House—and she still seems to be doing so. I will answer her points later.

A key part of Rio will be an agreement on the sustainable development goals—a priority for the UK, on which we are working closely with our EU and international partners. There is a lot to do on fleshing out SDGs, but we want to lead the way in helping to develop this thinking. The Secretary of State met a group of Ministers in Nairobi last week and the Colombian Environment Minister here today. We need a renewed focus on tackling the major sustainability issues of access to food, sustainable energy and water.

We need to focus on global challenges. Agriculture, water and energy are fundamental to our economy, and provide livelihoods for the world’s poorest people. By 2030, the world will need at least 50% more food, 45% more energy and 30% more water. These are massive issues. We have tried to do our bit in government by reflecting the concerns that we know future generations will face—for example in our water White Paper published just before Christmas, which set out how we will approach the resilience of our economy and natural environment to provide the water we need in the future.

We need a clear course of action on food security and sustainable agriculture, which is climate smart, reduces waste and takes into account water resources. We need to be clear that access to clean and safe water is a prerequisite for green growth. Just last week, we were discussing drought here in the UK—a country famous for its rainfall. In China, which has 20% of the world’s population but only 6% of its water resources, half of which are undrinkable, access to water resources will only become more important. The UN Secretary-General's “Sustainable Energy for All” initiative is an important step towards increasing sustainable energy, energy efficiency and the use of renewables.

We want to see outcomes that will put sustainability at the heart of decision making. This includes a commitment to go beyond gross domestic product so as to account for natural and social values, too. Many hon. Members touched on this issue. It is vital that we articulate it not just in the high-level conversations—or high-falutin’ ones, as one hon. Member put it—but at the local level. Several hon. Members stressed that we have to carry people with us in these arguments. I was particularly impressed with how my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood brought the argument down to the household level, as it is crucial to impact on households now and in the future.

The UK has a lot to share at Rio: through our national ecosystems assessment, through the Prime Minister’s work on well-being and through work stemming from our natural environment White Paper, we can begin to put natural value at the heart of decision making. A number of Members referred to the Government’s agenda in that regard. I was particularly taken by what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice) and by the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion. We are trying to value natural capital in the context of our economic well-being, of which it is a vital element, and we will shortly announce the membership of the natural capital committee. However, it is impossible to value a view: there must still be an element of the spiritual and uplifting benefits of nature that we all experience, and it is important that we articulate that.

The natural capital committee will advise the Government on our natural capital, and our work with the Office for National Statistics will embed it in our environmental accounts by 2020. Our guidance entitled “Accounting for Environmental Impacts” will help Departments to reflect the value of nature in decision making. Our ecosystems market taskforce—led by Ian Cheshire, chief executive of the Kingfisher group—will look at opportunities for businesses in new green goods and services, which form a vital part of our work in the future. Our work with the World Bank on its “Wealth Accounting and Valuation of Ecosystem Services” will pilot new approaches to wealth accounting in developing countries.

As has been said we also need greater resource efficiency and a commitment to reducing inefficient and environmentally harmful subsidies, including fossil fuel subsidies. In the UK alone, resource efficiency could provide £23 billion-worth of savings, or £2.9 trillion globally per annum, and the EU is well placed to lead on that through its “Roadmap to a Resource Efficient Europe”.

As the Government have noted, action by Governments alone will not be enough. Rio needs to engage the private sector actively so that it plays its part in delivering a greener economy through trade, innovation and investment. However, a Government can facilitate the transition by, for instance, reducing environmentally harmful subsidies. A number of Members mentioned fishing. Let me assure my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park that the Government’s agenda on fisheries partnership agreements is right up there in terms of reform of the common fisheries policy. It is entirely wrong that, having failed to put our own house in order, we are now inflicting bad management on some of the people in this world who can least afford it, and I assure my hon. Friend that dealing with that is an absolute priority for me.

We will be able to assist by incentivising research and development and innovation, by increasing resource efficiency, to which we have referred in the context of the water White Paper, by getting price signals right—I have mentioned the carbon floor in that connection—by valuing and accounting for natural resources, by making the best use of standards and voluntary approaches such as labelling and procurement, and by developing indicators of green growth. We have been engaging businesses in relation to possible outcomes from Rio, for example through the Green Economy Council.

Fisheries Council

Debate between Lord Benyon and Fiona O'Donnell

Monday 19th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

I wish to inform the House of the outcome of the discussions on fisheries at last week’s Agriculture and Fisheries Council, at which I represented the United Kingdom for the fisheries elements of the agenda, while Richard Lochhead, Michelle O’Neill and Alun Davies represented Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales respectively. I am aware that that many Members are very interested in the annual fisheries discussions, and I am grateful for the opportunity to inform the House of the outcome of this year’s negotiations.

The annual December round is always a difficult negotiation, but this year we went into it facing a greater challenge than we have confronted in recent years. Just under a month ago, the Commission published a regulation on the cod recovery plan that would have had dire consequences for significant elements of the UK fleet. We had not only to negotiate the annual total allowable catch and quota allocations, but successfully to negotiate a resolution of the threat of massive cuts in the time that our fishermen can spend at sea under the cod recovery plan. I am pleased to report that we managed to achieve both those outcomes.

We stated and won our case for our interpretation of article 13 of the cod recovery plan. That means that we can continue to offer incentives, in the form of additional days at sea, to fishermen who undertake additional conservation measures. Without that correction in interpretation, more than three quarters of the fleet would have had their fishing time cut drastically short, in some cases to just four days a fortnight. This important victory means fleets can go on fishing and catching their quota, while continuing the ground-breaking cod avoidance and discard reduction schemes that are being developed and implemented by fishermen all around our coast.

I know that the fact that—except in regard to the regulation that I mentioned a moment ago—we were unable to avoid reductions in days at sea has come as a blow to significant parts of the industry, and I share their disappointment. However, the Commission felt that significant legal obstacles, as well as resistance from a number of member states, prevented it from not cutting the number of days at sea. That said, the Commission has made it clear that the cod recovery plan is not meeting its objectives, and has agreed that the review that I secured last year must be accelerated as a matter of urgency. I hope that it will be possible to revise the rules without a full-blown co-decided revision of the text, but if that is needed, we will work hard with the Commission to create mitigating technical measures that will maximise the opportunities available to our fishermen.

Let me now turn to the TACs and quotas for next year, which constituted the main issue on the Council’s agenda. Since the Commission’s proposals were published in the autumn, we have consistently argued that we should follow the science, and should aim for the securing of sustainable fish stocks in our seas. That was particularly important in the context of tackling the so-called data-poor stocks. The Commission’s proposal that quotas should be reduced by up to 25% did not take into account all the information that the fishing industry and scientists had been collecting, or the implications of such cuts, both in economic terms for the fleet and for discards. Significant cuts in by-catch species, for instance, would have been likely to result in a substantial increase in discards. That is completely contrary to the policy of both the UK and the Commission, which is to eliminate discards.

We successfully negotiated amendments to the Commission’s original proposal for TACs and quotas—amendments that are worth an additional £36 million to the UK fleet. We secured the continuation of this year’s quota allocations for the majority of stocks, including North sea and west of Scotland megrim, whiting in western waters, and pollack and sole stocks along the west coast. I can give more details if Members require them, but a couple of noteworthy gains included a 200% TAC increase in west of Scotland haddock, a roll-over of Northern Ireland nephrops, and a 150% increase In south-western cod. The UK battled hard to reach an agreement that ensures the long-term sustainability of fish stocks while providing short-term catching opportunities for our fishing industry. The package we secured helps all sectors of the industry, large and small, and delivers benefits for all parts of the UK, north, south, east and west.

I would like to put on record my thanks for the co-operative manner in which colleagues from Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales contributed to the discussions. In the event, all Administrations were able to agree to the final deal. I would also like to stress that the overall package of measures was negotiated with close and constructive co-operation with the European Commission and with other member states, most notably France, Germany, Spain, Denmark and Ireland. This shows that the UK is playing a firm and constructive role in Europe, getting the best deal for the UK and its fishermen. This was a good result for the UK fleet and, equally importantly, a good result for the long-term sustainability of the stocks that our fleet fish.

[Fiona O'Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on at least managing to stay in the room with his European colleagues until 4 am, unlike the Prime Minister. I also congratulate him on exposing the two faces of the Scottish National party on Europe: on the one hand it promises to get out of the common fisheries policy, while on the other hand it says it wants to be a leading player in the EU.

A sustainable and profitable fishing industry is vital to the UK’s economic interests and to coastal communities around the UK. Some 12,000 fishermen are employed on UK boats, with just over 5,000 working in Scotland. The fishing industry is particularly important in Scotland. I grew up in the highlands of Scotland, and on a recent visit to the Western Isles I had a chance to speak to the fishermen in those fragile island communities. Fishing provides employment not only to the men I met in Tiree, Barra and Lewis, but to women as well, in the processing of the catch. May I ask the Minister whether he has visited the Western Isles, and if he has not may I urge him to talk to those men and women, so he can see for himself the impact the decisions he makes has on these fragile communities? Without a good deal from this Minister, the very existence of those communities is at risk.

The case for reforming the CFP is compelling. At present, almost half the fish caught in the EU are discarded, which is both an economic and an environmental waste. In July, this House unanimously adopted a motion urging the Government to support radical changes to the CFP. The Commission published its draft reform proposals on 13 July. What guarantees can the Minister give that the Government’s position on discards and CFP reform will not lose out in future negotiations? What progress is he making in advancing the case for the regional management of fisheries waters, a move that would be welcomed by the UK fishing industry?

I pay tribute to the Scottish fishing fleet, which has already reduced discards and introduced CCTV as part of catch quota to better manage fish stocks. What investment in scientific evidence is the Minister proposing to make as we move to long-term management of fishing stocks?

The verdict on this Minister is in: the fishing industry and conservation groups have described his deal as a disaster. In November he met representatives of the fishing industry and stakeholders to agree the UK’s red lines for the negotiations, including rejecting any calls to cut the number of days that fleets can spend at sea. On 5 December he issued a press statement saying his discussions with Commissioner Damanaki on the amount of time fishermen can spend at sea were very positive, yet his deal will mean a cut of between 15% and 25% in the number of days white-fish vessels can put out to sea in 2012 as part of the cod recovery plan. Fewer days at sea could lead to the unintended consequence of more damage to fish stocks and higher levels of discards, as fleets rush to catch all they can in their allotted time. Will the Minister explain why he abandoned his red line last week? Will he confirm that some vessels will see their period at sea cut to about four days in every fortnight? Will he tell us how many vessels will be affected and what the position of the Scottish fisheries Minister was on this issue? How difficult was it for the Minister to build alliances to support his red line? What went wrong? Bertie Armstrong, chief executive of the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation, said:

“This is a bitter blow for our fishing fleet, which is now going to struggle to maintain economic viability under the impact of these…unwarranted cuts.”

What is the Minister’s message to fishing communities who feel betrayed by his broken promises?

I welcome the 200% increase in respect of west of Scotland haddock, the 150% increase in respect of south-west cod and the deal for fishing fleets in Northern Ireland. What assessment has he made of the ability of the fleet to use the extra quota, given that they will be at sea for fewer days? What impact does he believe the overall package will have on the number of fishing vessels that will be viable next year? What assessment has he made of the impact of the reduction in the number of days at sea on the financial viability of the Scottish fishing fleet and fleets elsewhere in the UK?

Next year, we have a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to reform the CFP. What reassurances can the Minister give the House that the Prime Minister’s stance on Europe will not isolate us in discussions and ultimately harm the British fishing industry?

[Richard Benyon]

I thank the hon. Lady for her warm welcome—I am attempting irony, which never quite works from this position. She really needs to understand that at the beginning of last week we were looking down the barrel of a gun at cuts that could have resulted from a penalty regulation introduced by the Commission. Its interpretation of the cod recovery plan could have resulted in between half and two thirds of the Scottish fleet being put out of business, the Northern Irish nephrops fleet being tied up for 11 months of next year and a great many other vessels and fleets around the country being put out of business. We argued that both at meetings last week and at the end of the week at the Council and we got things reversed. We did so by close working with Ministers from other devolved Governments, and I thank them for their efforts.

If the hon. Lady looked into the details, she would see that although vessels will have a reduced number of days at sea next year, what we secured, through our interpretation of the cod recovery plan, was the ability for them to buy back days at sea by the imposition of other methods of conservation. So she simply has not understood the difference between the control order that the Commission has now withdrawn and the remains of the cod recovery plan.

The hon. Lady asked me to visit the Western Isles. I have done so in the past but not in this role, and I will certainly do so in the future. My right hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) has reminded me that I am due to visit Shetland soon, and I see such visits as an important part of my job as UK Minister. She rightly says that there is an important social element to this, because the men who risk their lives to get this healthy and much-needed food on to our plates also support people in ports.

The Government remain absolutely committed to reform of the common fisheries policy. I sat up until 4 o’clock on Saturday morning arguing about net sizes, the gauge of nets, the Orkney trawl and eliminator trawls—such details simply should not be the subject of a management system where the people imposing regulations on the fishery are sometimes located 1,000 miles away from the fishermen who are supposed to use them. We must have reform that is more decentralised and that gets away from the micro-management that has failed. I believe that last week exposed a system that is obsessed with process and therefore ignores outcomes. The cod recovery plan is not working because the Commission sticks so rigidly to the process and the rules and regulations.

What we have achieved is a realisation from the Commission that it must start to look at the process, because the outcomes we all want to achieve are being lost. The hon. Lady is right that Scotland’s fleet has done many good things. It has led the way in real-time closures and selective measures, but it has not done so exclusively. Wonderful work has been done around the United Kingdom and we want to see it being brought forward. That is why we have secured the science budget, which the hon. Lady asked me about, to ensure that the information we can give the Commission is accurate. We faced 25% cuts in total allowable catch for data-poor stocks, but we managed to argue against that, not out of a blind desire to let our fishermen go fishing but because there was scientific evidence for it.

When the hon. Lady talked about last week, she talked as though Britain was somehow isolated in Europe. Nothing could be further from the truth. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is today at the Environment Council and she will have the same experience as I had, which is of a close working relationship. I built alliances with the French and the Germans, and, as I said, with the Spanish, the Irish, the Danish and those from many other countries. I can assure the hon. Lady that Britain is far from being isolated in these matters.