Conduct Committee
Debate between Lord Balfe and Lord Mance
Lord Balfe (Con)
I think the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, is absolutely right in that I regret the compulsion attached to this training. I have done the training. It was largely irrelevant; most of it was about the House of Commons, or appeared to be. I wonder whether the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mance, would like, on the basis of these comments, to take his report back, edit it, change it a bit, then present it to us again.
Lord Mance (CB) [V]
I am grateful for the points made by noble Lords, and I will, of course, take those back to the Conduct Committee, as the House would wish me to do. I shall take the points in turn. I am grateful for the support from my noble friend Lord McConnell, in particular, but others, too.
The restriction of services, which lies within the commissioner’s jurisdiction as a result of an amendment to the code and guide that the House accepted at our suggestion earlier this year, is, of course, according to the circumstances. The commissioner has to tailor any restriction to meet needs. In one case that she considered, which we considered on appeal, our report indicated that while we would have had sympathy with the idea of a restriction on services, it did not meet the particular case, it was not obvious which services should be restricted, and they were not apparently being used anyway. However, this is undoubtedly a valuable tool, as much during investigations as after a conclusion that a Member of the House has not behaved appropriately. During investigations, staff are naturally particularly anxious, and we intend to look at the question of sanctions generally and to issue some further guidance on them.
The suspension of staff passes probably does not lie directly within our jurisdiction, but it is certainly a point that should be attended to. I take on board the forceful comments that have been made. It may already be covered by restriction of facilities, but it is of a slightly different nature and will be given consideration.
On the second point made by the noble Lord, and by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, about relations between Peers and other relations that might merit mediation, obviously, as far as possible, amicable resolution of minor problems is, one hopes, something that occurs discreetly. I know that the Clerk of the Parliaments is very concerned to speak, where appropriate, to Peers. I know also that the leaders of parties and the Convenor of the Cross Benches would act, in appropriate circumstances, where a matter was not going to be made the subject of a formal complaint. Looking at the picture slightly more broadly, the steering group for change is a holistic task force, with Peers, clerks and members of staff on it. It is tasked, in particular, with cultural change.
I move on to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack. First, I regret that I am not in the Chamber; I had understood that we were not exactly encouraged to attend. I take his point on board, but I ask the House to reject his broader argument that this is unnecessary. Only too sadly, I am sure that some if not all noble Lords have read some of the reports that have so far been issued. I shall not name names, but as others said, in particular the noble Lord, Lord Newby, very forcefully, it is not so simple. There is, unfortunately, a clear problem, even in this House. People sometimes behave in ways that one may not conceive of oneself, but that are recorded in great detail in the press and in the reports issued by the commissioner. Unconscious attitudes, and lack of consciousness of a problem, are real issues that the Valuing Everyone training is designed to address.
The noble Lord, Lord McConnell, mentioned concerns about the scope of training. This was again picked up by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith. The point has been taken on board. It is a point that was made from a reasonably early stage, and we have urged that the model should be House of Lords oriented, that it should not be employment oriented, at least primarily, and that it should cater for our particular position. I believe that it has been adapted appropriately and I hope that more recent attendees have found this.