Local Government (Religious etc. Observances) Bill

Debate between Lord Avebury and Lord Faulkner of Worcester

Friday 13th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Avebury]

My Lords, Amendment 6 would leave out new Section 138B which the Bill proposes to insert into the Local Government Act 1972.

Except for the words “support or facilitate, or”, which Amendment 8 proposes should be left out, this new section duplicates the provisions of Section 111(1) of the Local Government At 1972, which reads, in part, that,

“a local authority shall have the power to do any thing (whether or not involving the expenditure, borrowing or lending of money or the acquisition or disposal of any property or rights) which is calculated to facilitate, or is conducive or incidental to, the discharge of any of their functions”.

No doubt my noble friend can say to the Committee whether the Government disagree with Eric Pickles, who was quoted by the New Statesman as claiming that under the Localism Act, which came into force in February 2012, after the Bideford ruling, councils have a general power of competence. He said:

“Logically this includes ability to pray before meetings”.

I would be grateful for an answer to that question and to the others that I posed to my noble friend during the first discussion. I did not expect him to have all the answers available off the cuff today, but it would be useful if he could write to me at some point after the conclusion of these proceedings.

There is enough legislation generated in this place already without legislating to empower local authorities to do what they are already able to do. We understand, however, that my noble friend believes that the High Court judgment in the Bideford case could mean that no event that has any religious element in it is permissible and would therefore be open to challenge. In fact the judgment was limited specifically to the saying of prayers as part of the formal meeting of a council and did not extend to any other part of its activities. Here again, assuming that my noble friend has taken advice, could he place a copy of counsel’s opinion in the Library of the House?

In the Bideford case, the judge analysed the provisions of Section 111 very thoroughly, saying that the council did not require members to attend prayers uniquely among all other matters on the agenda of their meetings. If it was necessary to grant this dispensation, prayers could not be regarded as conducive to the transaction of business or to the exercise of any functions. At paragraph 25 the judgment reads:

“There is a contradiction at the heart of the Council’s position. It has made the prayers part of the formal business of the Council, yet it says that Councillors, summoned to its meetings, are not obliged to be present for this incident to the transaction of business nor to participate in it. I do not think that what falls within the scope of s111, as an incident to the transaction of the business of the meeting, can then be regarded as such that attendance for it is unnecessary or optional, in distinction from all other business. In effect it is treated as being outside the scope of the meeting”.

This is the key to the sensible solution of a dispute that we are having with my noble friend. If prayers were not part of the formal meeting, but were held separately under voluntary arrangements, there could be no possible objection to them. Every faith group represented on the council is fully entitled to hold prayers or other religious observances as a group if it considers it appropriate. It is wholly unjust for those on my noble friend’s side of the argument to say that we are trying to restrict religious freedom.

The ruling could not, by the greatest stretch of the imagination, apply to events outside the council chamber and that applies not only to private meetings for prayer but to voluntary attendance at remembrance or other religious services, which are not remotely controversial. They occur all over the country without any problem or challenge. To put it another way, new Section 138B, which Amendment 6 proposes to leave out, is based almost entirely on an implausible hypothesis.

That leaves only Amendments 7 and 8 in this group to be mentioned. Amendment 7 would prevent the authorities covered by the Bill from supporting, and Amendment 8 would prevent them from supporting or facilitating, religious events. Local government is funded by a society that is, however much the promoter of the Bill may regret it, increasingly religiously diverse and non-religious. Indeed, in many localities, the non-religious may themselves already be in a majority. Each authority’s purpose is, or should be, to serve all equally, regardless of religion and belief, and its functions are not of a religious nature.

The authority’s funds, which come from the council tax and national taxation of people of all faiths and no faith, should therefore not be expended to support or facilitate events, or elements thereof, which are of a religious or belief nature. Consider how the corrupt former mayor of Tower Hamlets, condemned by Mr Pickles as a “medieval monarch” who had “misused” his “unchecked” personal power to favour ethnic and political allies, might have relished the use of these powers. They would not only have caused people to pay for events to which many were opposed, but they could be used by unscrupulous politicians to buy the loyalty of particular religious groups or to favour the groups to which they belonged. It would be helpful to know whether my noble friend believes that the law already allows local authorities to “support” or “facilitate”, as in this Bill, under the Local Government Act or otherwise. If it does, there is no need for it to be part of this Bill. If not, it represents mission creep—literally in this case—which has not been acknowledged. Either way, I am unhappy that the power is there and I hope that noble Lords will agree with me.

Please note that these amendments do not leave out “make arrangements to be represented at”, although, on reflection, perhaps we should have sought to leave out words that are obviously covered already because the Local Government Act allows for such representation at other events. The rest of the amendments in this group are consequential. I beg to move.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) (Lab)]

My Lords, I must advise the Committee that if this amendment is agreed to, I shall not be able to call Amendments 7 or 8 for reasons of pre-emption.

Health: Obesity

Debate between Lord Avebury and Lord Faulkner of Worcester

Thursday 26th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab)]

My Lords, has the Minister had the chance to study this morning the reports of the research from the health campaign group Action on Sugar, which demonstrates that enormous quantities of sugar are found in so-called sports and energy drinks and that these are targeted at children in particular? One particular drink produced by a well known high street grocery—

[Lord Avebury (LD)]

Sainsbury’s.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

Yes, Sainsbury’s. It contains up to 20 teaspoons of sugar in every can—far, far over the recommended limit.