Chilcot Inquiry and Parliamentary Accountability

Debate between Lord Austin of Dudley and Natascha Engel

Wednesday 30th November 2016 Commons Chamber

[Ian Austin]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Is it in order for a Member of this House to allege that other Members of this House were bribed—paid—to vote a particular way? Should he not produce evidence for it? What a disgrace.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Natascha Engel)]

The hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) did not accuse a specific individual of taking a bribe. The hon. Member for Dudley North (Ian Austin) is perfectly entitled to ask him in an intervention whether he will withdraw what he has said, but this is not a matter for the Chair.

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[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Is the hon. Gentleman in order to pursue these particular matters when we are in fact having a very serious debate on Iraq? [Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Natascha Engel)]

Order. This debate is about the Chilcot inquiry and parliamentary scrutiny. I have given the hon. Member for Dudley North (Ian Austin) quite a lot of leeway, but I would be very grateful to him if he got back to the subject we are debating.

[Ian Austin]

This debate is also about judgment, and the right hon. Gentleman’s judgment has been found completely wanting at every stage. It is also about intervention—whether Britain intervened rightly or wrongly—and about the consequences of that intervention. For example, when Britain was intervening to save lives in Kosovo, he said it was an action of “dubious legality” and condemned it as “unpardonable folly”. He demanded a ceasefire and urged the urgent start of talks with Milosevic. When challenged, he said that

“we shall see if I am right”.

History has proved him completely wrong—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. This is not a debate about the right hon. Member for Gordon (Alex Salmond); it is about the Chilcot inquiry. I would be grateful to the hon. Gentleman if he moved back to that subject.

[Ian Austin]

This is the final point I want to make: of course we should learn lessons from the invasion of Iraq, but we must also learn lessons from successful interventions, such as those in Kosovo, but the right hon. Gentleman ought to show some humility and apologise for his mistakes and lack of judgment over the decades.

Scotland Bill

Debate between Lord Austin of Dudley and Natascha Engel

Monday 9th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Ian Austin]

In September 1997, I travelled from Dudley to Glasgow and Edinburgh to support the late Donald Dewar and Scottish Labour’s campaign for a yes-yes vote in the devolution referendum—[Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Natascha Engel)]

Order. There is an awful lot of noise in the Chamber while the hon. Gentleman is on his feet.

[Ian Austin]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

I remember helping to organise events at which Donald Dewar, the right hon. Member for Gordon (Alex Salmond), who has just left his place, and Sean Connery spoke at the Old Royal High School building, overlooking what would become the site of the new Scottish Parliament. SNP Members did not object so much then to people from England taking an interest in Scottish politics. That referendum led to the establishment of the Scottish Parliament, and the amendments to the Scotland Bill that Labour has tabled, which I wish to support today, will make it a permanent part of the UK’s constitution.

I promise that my speech will be the shortest we have heard today, but I want to set out some practical arguments in support of the case made for greater decentralisation by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen). As we have heard, these proposals constitute the biggest transfer of power since the Scotland Act 1998. The Bill will make the Scottish Parliament the most powerful devolved parliament in the world. It will raise 50% of its own expenditure, with power over most of the revenue from income tax and much of social security.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian Austin]

I will come on to the SNP’s record on running the health service shortly, but before I do—[Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Natascha Engel)]

Order. No shouting out, please. A Member is speaking and it is quite difficult to hear what he is saying. It is not appropriate to shout things out. If people want to speak they can intervene or stand up and take part in the debate. Let us have no shouting.

[Ian Austin]

I am afraid they are behaving like nationalist bullies the world over. They try to silence anybody who has a different view. They want to pretend that whether or not you are allowed to take part in a debate in this Chamber depends on where you represent and the accent you have. It is a complete and utter disgrace.