Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Lord Armstrong of Ilminster Excerpts

Wednesday 10th July 2013 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Armstrong of Ilminster]

85: Before Clause 12, insert the following new Clause—
“Legislative definitions
(1) For the purposes of legislation regulating or relating to marriage—
(a) there shall no difference or distinction be made between lawful marriage of same sex couples and lawful marriage between a man and a woman, save as provided for in this Act or as required to give effect to any difference or distinction which is made necessary by reason of physiological or biological differences of gender or consequences thereof;(b) where it is necessary to make legislative provision regulating or relating to marriages between same sex couples but not marriages between a man or a woman, or marriages between a man and a woman but not marriages between same sex couples, lawful marriage between same sex couples may be defined as same sex marriage, lawful marriages between same sex couples may be defined as same sex marriages, lawful marriage between a man and a woman may be defined as opposite sex marriage and lawful marriages between a man and a woman may be defined as opposite sex marriages;(c) all legislation regulating or relating to marriage having effect before the passage of this Act continues in effect in relation to opposite sex marriages save as varied or modified by any provision of this Act;(d) the Secretary of State or the Lord Chancellor may by order vary, modify or repeal legislation regulating or relating to opposite sex marriage, if it appears that such variation, modification or repeal is required as a consequence of the passage of this Act.”

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Armstrong of Ilminster]

My Lords, I move the amendment standing in my name and in the names of my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern and my noble friends Lady Williams of Crosby and Lord Lea of Crondall—if a Cross-Bencher may be allowed to have noble friends in all parts of the House.

What are the purposes of this amendment? The preamble makes it clear that it is limited to legislation regulating or relating to marriage. The primary purpose of the Bill is, I take it, to enable same-sex couples to be married, to enjoy the same rights and privileges and be subject to the same laws, duties and obligations as married man-and-woman couples already enjoy and are subject to. On Monday, the Minister said that,

“there is one institution of marriage and we are opening the door to it … There will be only one door and all couples will be invited to walk through it”.—[Official Report, 8/7/13; col. 33.]

--- Later in debate ---

It is because of that principle that we cannot accept the amendment. Amendment 85 would create considerable confusion in terms of the effect it would have sitting alongside Clause 11, as it deals with much the same subject matter—how marriage for same-sex couples and opposite-sex couples is to have effect and be interpreted in law—but adopts a different approach and makes no provision about the interaction between the two. This confusion about how it might work is another reason, in addition to the one of principle, why this amendment should be rejected. I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw the amendment. However, if it is pressed to a Division, I hope that the House will see fit to defeat it.

[Lord Armstrong of Ilminster]

My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords who have taken part in this brief debate. I did not expect to please the noble Lord, Lord Lester, but I do not myself think that the amendment deserves the obloquy that he attempts to throw upon it. None the less, given the views that have been expressed, I do not think that it would be right to force a Division. Therefore, with some regret, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 85 withdrawn.

Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Lord Armstrong of Ilminster Excerpts

Monday 8th July 2013 Lords Chamber

Tabled by

[Lord Armstrong of Ilminster]

71: Clause 11, page 12, line 23, at end insert—
“(d) an order under section (Legislative definitions) (1)(d)”

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Armstrong of Ilminster]

My Lords, I am in something of a dilemma, because Amendment 71 is consequential on Amendment 85, which is the substantive amendment, but it has been agreed between the usual channels that Amendment 85 will be for debate on Wednesday afternoon. If it is for the convenience of the House that we should not be too late—much too late—rising tonight, I will be content not to move Amendment 71 tonight but come back to it when we discuss Amendment 85. If Amendment 85 falls, Amendment 71 will not be required; if Amendment 85 is maintained, we will need an amendment of this kind either at Report or on Third Reading.

Amendment 71 not moved.

Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Lord Armstrong of Ilminster Excerpts

Monday 17th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Armstrong of Ilminster]

My Lords, as both the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, and the noble Marquess, Lord Lothian, referred to Amendment 46, which is in my name, I will take this opportunity to speak to it.

The Bill reminds me irresistibly of Humpty Dumpty, as other noble Lords have said it does them. Your Lordships will remember that, from his seat on the wall, Humpty Dumpty said to Alice:

“When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less”.

A little later, he said:

“You see it’s like a portmanteau—there are two meanings packed up into one word”.

I should not of course think of casting the Prime Minister, with his many other qualities, as Humpty Dumpty but I am sure that the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, and her colleagues will not have forgotten Humpty Dumpty’s fate. Sitting on his wall, he failed to assess the risk of falling off it and had a nasty accident. Unfortunately, he could not be saved, even though the military were called upon in aid of the civil power.

The Bill would change the meaning of the word “marriage”, which has hitherto denoted a loving and lifelong commitment between a man and a woman, often—although as the noble Lord, Lord Phillips has said, not always—leading to the procreation of children and the perpetuation of the human race. If and when the Bill becomes law, marriage would become a portmanteau word. Marriage between same-sex couples would be lawful as well as marriages between a man and a woman. The intention is that same-sex couples who choose to marry should enjoy equality of rights and equality of esteem with men and women who choose to marry. I have no problem whatever with that, although equality of rights is something that can be, and largely has been, achieved by changes in the law without any change of nomenclature while equality of esteem, although it may be assisted by a change in the law, will not be achieved by that alone.

My amendment today is concerned solely with the law. The Bill changes the meaning of the word “marriage”, which is where Humpty Dumpty comes in. It makes marriage between same-sex couples as lawful as marriages between a man and a woman. As the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, said, there still remain some ineluctable differences between the two kinds of marriage. The law will need to recognise, and be able to provide for, this distinction. The Bill already shows that some of the existing legislative provisions which apply to marriage, as we have known it, cannot apply to marriages between same-sex couples, although we should want them still to apply to marriages between a man and a woman. My amendment proposes that, for the purposes of the law, marriages between a man and a woman should be “matrimonial marriages”. This would mean no change in the meaning of the word “matrimony”, which would continue to mean what it has always meant: the act of two free persons mutually taking one another for husband and wife. I do not need to pray Humpty Dumpty in aid of my amendment.

There are precedents for a qualifying adjective for certain kinds of marriage. For instance, in continental legal systems—although not I think in English law—there used to be morganatic marriages, where a man and a woman were lawfully married but the children of the marriage were disqualified from inheriting the father’s hereditary honours. The amendment which I am proposing would provide a convenient means of distinguishing in legislation, where necessary, between marriages of a man and a woman—matrimonial marriages—and marriages of same-sex couples. The word and concept of marriage would apply to both kinds of marriage, but the amendment would provide a serviceable legal distinction for one kind of marriage. It implies no moral, ethical or value-based judgment, or discrimination, between the two kinds of marriage. I commend it to the House.

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

My Lords, I would like to know the basis on which any noble Lord would disagree with the sentiments expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Armstrong of Ilminster.