European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Debate between Lord Anderson of Swansea and Viscount Waverley

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords & Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords & Report: 1st sitting
Monday 20th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords, I adopt the wise words of the noble Lords, Lord Oates, Lord Warner and Lord Kerslake, and echo what they said about the danger of rerunning Windrush and about the fallibility of government computer systems, which we have seen in many cases.

I will add only one further point. I had the honour to serve, during the last Session, on your Lordships’ EU Justice Sub-Committee, ably chaired by my noble friend Lady Kennedy of The Shaws. It was a friendly committee and we worked in a consensual way. The committee examined EU citizens’ rights after Brexit, and one of the key concerns that we expressed was precisely that the EU citizen in the UK, for reassurance, needed some physical proof of the fact that they could remain in the UK. Certainly, some of us thought that Ministers, in seeking to justify their position—not pragmatically—seemed just a little uneasy. The committee heard much evidence, both oral and written, from a number of representatives of EU citizens, travelled to two parts of the UK and, importantly, met representatives of all the EU embassies on two occasions. They were able to represent the concerns of their citizens—so it was not, therefore, a capricious conclusion that we reached, but one based very firmly on evidence.

We tried to put ourselves in the shoes of those EU citizens in the UK. Of course, they would be used to ID cards, but some might have a certain hesitation about authorities and would certainly need an assurance, as the Government have said on a number of occasions. Have they had adequate protection? Not in my judgment, because a physical document is necessary to give those citizens confidence. In passing, it would also show that the Government do listen to one of their committees that has researched the project quite thoroughly.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My point, following the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, is that there does need to be supporting digital, because, for example, a government agency from the UK has on occasion questioned the validity of a Portuguese residency card—I have first-hand experience, being resident in Portugal—as being either fraudulently obtained or else open to counterfeit.

House of Lords Act 1999 (Amendment) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Anderson of Swansea and Viscount Waverley

Friday 9th September 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

But that element of trust on behalf of the British people is surely for all of us and not in any way restricted to hereditary Peers, although I accept that it is perhaps rather odd that the hereditary Peers provide the only element of election for membership of this House.

As my noble friend Lord Grocott very plausibly and convincingly said, the Bill will allow the current hereditary membership to wither on the vine by allowing current Peers to remain Members for the rest of their days or until they choose to retire. It ensures that their successors to be Members of the House of Lords must be subject to the same criteria and procedures as the rest of us. There is no particular wisdom that can pass from one hereditary Peer to his son—why should there be? They should be dealt with and regarded in the same way as all the rest of our population. Hence we are talking about the removal of a nostalgic vestige of the old regime, which was agreed for tactical reasons in 1999.

Secondly, there is of course a case for wider reform. This is supported by the recent remarks of the Lord Speaker. I say in passing that the current Lord Speaker has started well and I hope he will continue to make comments on matters of interest of this nature. He states that the number of Members of this House should be cut to below 600, no greater than the number of Members of Parliament. Presumably he would want it to be capped at that figure and not to be increased by successive Members of Parliament. I invite Members to look at the recent appointments in the resignation honours of Mr Cameron and see the way in which No. 10 has been honoured so massively, and contrast that with what Mr Blair did in refusing to have resignation honours, when there were a number of people in No. 10 who were eminently worthy of coming to this House. I think of Jonathan Powell, for example, who facilitated the agreement in Northern Ireland and made a great contribution to this country. But Mr Blair said, I think correctly, that it was not appropriate to have such a resignation honours list.

[Viscount Waverley]

I apologise to the noble Lord and to the House. The noble Lord might be giving the case for reversing the whole process of entry into this House. Perhaps the selection process ought to be under scrutiny and elected by Members of this House rather than by appointment—forget the whole system of appointment.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

That is an interesting point but perhaps an argument for another day. I revert to what I was saying about the numbers in this House, which are getting quite impossible. I note also the argument of my noble friend Lady Smith of Basildon, who has argued persuasively for separating honours from the peerage, as many categories of worthy recipients of honours would not wish to participate in the work of this House. Of course, many procedures for reducing the numbers have been canvassed. Some argue for one for one—one out, one in—but that would not in itself reduce the numbers. The voluntary principle for retirement has had only a marginal effect, with 52 retirements since 2014. Perhaps that number might be increased, dare I say, with some form of financial inducement—a bronze handshake—but that is another argument. A retirement age has been mooted, with Members forced to retire at the end of the Parliament in which they reach the age of 80.

Clearly, more radical culling has to take place if the aspirations of our Lord Speaker are to be met. Ultimately I would like to see this House more representative of the United Kingdom as a whole, perhaps with regional assemblies putting forward their own lists, away from No. 10. But if the numbers are allowed to rise inexorably, when this House returns in 2028—or when we move, as is suggested, some time after 2020—the Queen Elizabeth II Centre will not be large enough to accommodate us. We shall have to look elsewhere, perhaps even to Wembley Stadium, to accommodate the numbers.