Welsh Ministers (Transfer of Functions) (Railways) Order 2018

Debate between Lord Anderson of Swansea and Lord Jones

Monday 16th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords, I am happy to join the chorus of broad approval for the order, which follows an undertaking given by the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, and helps to implement a key part of the recommendations of the Silk commission. It is a practical, pragmatic way of dealing with the fact of rail lines which straddle the border, dealing therefore not only with those lines wholly within Wales but those which extend to England. I also congratulate those responsible on a clear Explanatory Memorandum —one of the best I have seen, in fact. Even I could understand every word in it.

It is clear that the process of devolution is incremental and that its context has changed remarkably from that of the 1970s, when I found myself on a different side from that of my noble friends Lord Wigley and Lord Morgan. I am not wholly sure where my noble friend Lord Jones was on it—

[Lord Jones]

Please be very sure.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

The context was certainly very different at that time. As I recall, there were a number of voices calling for complete independence for Wales. There was a lack of precedents for devolution within a unitary context; therefore, many could plausibly argue that more care needed to be taken about the constitutional checks and balances, where there could be what was often called a slippery slope. That danger has disappeared and I am delighted to find myself on the same side as my noble friends, at a time when we are looking at this issue in a pragmatic and practical way. We can ignore those concerns of the 1970s, although it is fair to say that they were shared by a large swathe of the people of Wales. In the referendum of 1979, which we often forget, there was a 4:1 majority against the then devolution proposals.

The Government have mentioned the Scottish precedent and sought to draw a distinction between the position in Wales and the more advanced settlement in Scotland. I accept, of course, that the popular pressure is different in Scotland but I expect that we in Wales will move more and more, if perhaps more slowly, towards the Scottish precedent. That is why I was a little dubious about the wording of the March 2015 Command Paper, with its sub-heading Towards a Lasting Devolution Settlement for Wales, as if there was an end station or terminus. My own view is that it is unlikely, given the dynamic nature of the process, that there will be an easy terminus and certainly not one that we can foresee at the moment.

This emphasises the need for partnership and co-operation across the border. One feature which becomes clear in the Explanatory Memorandum is the close working relationship between the Department for Transport and the Government of Wales, which has led to this outcome. There will be increasing co-operation and I note also the provisions in the order relating to the closure and discontinuance of lines. This is an excellent movement because it places the decisions within the Welsh Government; if you have the responsibility for decisions, that leads to greater responsibility overall.

This is not a constituency matter but the Minister mentioned the Valley Lines. Yes, they are important, but the line which is most important to and most used by the people of Wales is the Paddington-Fishguard line. It will be helpful to know what, if any, implications there are for that line. Certainly, the previous decisions by the Government were wholly unwelcome and unhelpful to west Wales. It looked as if the world ended at Cardiff when the Government decided that the electrification which had been planned for a long time between Cardiff and Swansea would be ended. I will not develop this theme, save to say that part of the continuing problem of Swansea is that of attracting industry and development, and the perception of many people that west Wales is not worth looking at.

It must cause damage to Swansea and west Wales generally that the Government at Westminster decided not to continue, as promised, with the electrification of that line. Will there be any changes in relation to that important line? I hope that there will at least be a greater degree of consensus and of working together in the spirit of this order, but I end with this: the decision to end the electrification project was damaging and I hope that ultimately it will be reversed.