Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 (Extension of duration of non-jury trial provisions) Order 2017

Debate between Lord Alderdice and Lord McAvoy

Tuesday 18th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his clear exposition of what is involved in this order. I am sure the House knows exactly what is at stake. I reiterate at the outset that this is reluctant legislation. We do not want to have to renew it, and neither do the Government. We welcome their assurance that they wish to end this exceptional system in Northern Ireland as soon as it is no longer necessary.

Your Lordships’ House is familiar with the security situation in Northern Ireland. It has been a little over a year since the death of Prison Officer Adrian Ismay after he was injured in a dissident republican bomb attack in Belfast. As the Minister said, in January this year two serving police officers were attacked in a public place with automatic gunfire. Dissident republicans and violent members of paramilitary groups seek to maim, kill and intimidate communities and with it disrupt peace and the rule of law in Northern Ireland. We pay tribute to those police officers, prison officers and members of the Armed Forces who serve the communities and are the main focus of these attacks. These threats affect all communities and, recklessly and without care, put the wider public at risk.

We are assured that decisions on the use of these provisions are taken with appropriate vigilance, with only a very small number of cases having these precautions applied to them. I understand that so far this year they make up 0.5% of Crown Court cases in Northern Ireland; last year, there were 19 relevant cases. I warmly welcome the commitment that the independent reviewer of the 2007 Act will be asked to review the non-jury trial provisions as part of the annual review cycle. This is a positive move which increases oversight of these exceptional measures.

The order unfortunately remains necessary due to the particular realities of the security situation and criminal justice in Northern Ireland. A huge amount of progress has been made, but we have further to travel. It is incredibly important, and remains our hope, that a full, devolved and inclusive Government will be returned in Northern Ireland as soon as possible. Today, for the reasons given, we have no hesitation in supporting the time-limited extension of this order.

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for presenting in a clear and concise way the implications of the order.

I accept that, unfortunately, it is necessary to bring this order back for another two years. Indeed, only yesterday, his right honourable friend in the other place, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, said in a Written Statement that the report of his honour, Brian Barker QC, the independent reviewer of national security arrangements, confirmed that,

“Dissident republican groupings remain interested and involved in criminality … Loyalist paramilitaries claim political allegiance, although the motivation of many is crime and control through intimidation and violence”.—[Official Report, Commons, 17/7/17; col. 23WS.]


So this is not the same situation as people being involved in criminality and gangsterism on this side of the water, and we acknowledge that.

However, what is the intention of the Government, not only with this order but with the issues indicated in the report of the independent reviewer, who states:

“The deficiencies in the administration of criminal justice and the limited progress in case management are all too obvious … Tightening the criminal justice system by streamlining criminal justice processes and faster committal proceedings would increase public confidence”?—[Official Report, Commons, 17/7/17; col. 23WS.]


Will the Minister let us know what the Government intend to do to follow this up?

This leads me to a wider question. In April of this incoming year, we are coming up to the 20th anniversary of the Good Friday agreement, and we are still talking not about criminality and gangsters—they will always be with us—but about paramilitary organisations. That is why there is a need for this order and that is why there is a threat. But let us analyse this for just a minute. We must recognise that, as the last sitting of the Northern Ireland Assembly—which was the first sitting after the Assembly elections—was in early March of this year, there is clearly going to be no Northern Ireland Assembly now into the summer. It will be at the earliest in September and, realistically, much later, before there is a Northern Ireland Assembly. Therefore, the only opportunity to scrutinise what is going on is on this side of the water. Indeed, there will be no possibility to ask any of these questions until September time, so another six months will have passed.

We had all hoped that, after the Good Friday agreement, things would move reasonably quickly; they did not. From 2004 to 2011, I served on the Independent Monitoring Commission, whose job was to address the activities of the paramilitaries, the very people that we are trying to address in this order. At the end of that time, there had been a real improvement in the situation. However, by December 2015 it was necessary for me and two colleagues—John McBurney and Monica McWilliams—to return to the question, having been appointed by the First Minister, the Deputy First Minister and the Minister of Justice, to produce a strategy for the disbanding of the paramilitaries that are the cause of us having to bring this order forward.

We were asked to produce a strategy and we produced the report by the end of May 2016. It was approved and the First Minister, the Deputy First Minister and the Minister of Justice committed themselves to action on 19 July 2016—almost exactly 12 months ago—and the British Government and the Northern Ireland Executive each committed themselves to £25 million over the following five years to address it. There was to be an Independent Reporting Commission. When the legislation went through this House—the Minister will not remember because he did not have this portfolio—I said that I did not believe that reporting once a year was enough; the Independent Monitoring Commission should produce reports twice a year. The Government said no, once a year, but it could be more often.

The Independent Reporting Commission was not appointed until December 2016, six months after the report went through and the Northern Ireland Executive had accepted it. So, as it reports only once a year, it will be at least December 2017 before we have any report. That is 18 months on from things being put into place and yet the Minister finds himself having to bring forward legislation to address not ordinary organised crime but the paramilitary organisations. Are the Government satisfied that the report that was produced on disbanding the paramilitaries is being acted upon?

There was to be a cross-departmental implementation board. Is that board meeting? We do not know. The Northern Ireland Assembly is not in a position to ask the question, so we have little alternative but to ask the question here. As the UK Government directly are putting in £25 million over the next five years—and, indirectly of course, the whole of the £50 million—there is a real interest in this House and in this debate in getting a response from the Minister as to whether the activities that ensure the requirement for this order are being addressed as we set out to do. Although the First Minister, the Deputy First Minister and the Minister of Justice at the time said, “Oh yes, there will be this implementation board and, in addition to that, the Independent Reporting Commission”, we have seen nothing from any of that.

We are being asked, quite rightly, to renew this order because of paramilitary activity and yet complete radio silence seems to have descended since the report on the strategy for disbanding was presented last June and agreed by the Northern Ireland Executive last July. Can the Minister help us to address this question?

Finally, when the IMC was disbanded—I know some noble Lords do not agree with me but, in my view, as a member of the commission, it was the right thing to do at the time—the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland undertook that every six months he or she would give a report on the activities of paramilitaries and the other issues which the IMC had reported on. Given the absence of reports for some time, the absence of anything from the Independent Reporting Commission and the absence of a Northern Ireland Assembly that can address that, can the Minister indicate whether it will be possible for us not simply to piggyback on the occasional order that comes through here but that we can properly address these questions when we return in the autumn? If the Assembly is not addressing the questions, some of us from Northern Ireland have to try to do so and make sure that something is happening, because departmental civil servants are supposed to be meeting and processing this, spending the money and, it is hoped, making some kind of impact.

I hope that the Minister realises that I am taking the opportunity of this order to speak because, frankly, there will be no other chance for us to address these questions. I think that they are serious enough. We saw last week that many of the bonfires were perfectly satisfactory cultural celebrations but there were some—such as the one close to Sandy Row—where it was clear that paramilitary organisations were out directing operations and there was a real danger not just to property but to lives, including those of children. What he has said is absolutely right: there are real issues here, and if there is a real need, there must be some real accountability and scrutiny. I would therefore ask the Minister if he is prepared to address this again after the summer break, if it is the case that there is no Northern Ireland Assembly to do it.

Northern Ireland: Political Situation

Debate between Lord Alderdice and Lord McAvoy

Tuesday 8th September 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, first, I thank the Government for giving us advance sight of the Secretary of State’s Statement. We in the Labour Opposition strongly support the UK and Irish Governments’ decision to convene all-party talks this week in an attempt to secure a positive way forward on the challenging issues raised by the murder of Kevin McGuigan Sr and its aftermath, together with the implementation of the Stormont House agreement.

There is no doubt that the combination of real concerns following the assessment of the chief constable of the PSNI of the status of the Provisional IRA and the failure to agree a sustainable budget poses the biggest threat to stability in Northern Ireland for many years. We must not lose sight of what has been achieved by all parties talking to each other and, like the Government, we urge all parties to seek the necessary compromises and confidence-building measures, which can avert the collapse of the institutions. The people of Northern Ireland and all sections of the community have had their faith in politicians and political institutions badly damaged by the perpetual crises of the past few years. There should be no doubt that the vast majority want to see progress and a return to a focus on issues such as jobs, education, health and opportunities for young people. It is also the case that business confidence, and therefore investment, is being put at risk by political uncertainty. Many people feel—I understand the feeling—that there is a sense of drift which needs to be tackled head-on by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. However, all parties in Northern Ireland as well must take responsibility for stepping back from the brink and finding a way forward.

I should like to put some questions to the Minister. In the aftermath of Mr McGuigan’s murder, the Secretary of State said that the Government had always been aware of the continued existence of the Provisional IRA. Can the Minister clear up exactly what was meant by that statement? Is there any evidence of activity by the Provisional IRA, or indeed any so-called loyalist paramilitary groups?

There have been suggestions to reintroduce the Independent Monitoring Commission, although I know that doubts about that have been expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice. Has an assessment been made of the feasibility and desirability of such a measure?

Precisely at what stage in this financial year will the Northern Ireland budget cease to be sustainable? In the event of this round of talks failing, are the Government actively considering emergency legislation through the House to suspend political institutions and return to direct rule?

Can the Minister provide any detail on the yesterday’s statement that the Government will now consider legislating for welfare reform and releasing funding for the Civil Service voluntary redundancy scheme, and what will be the timeline on that?

I finish by urging, along with the Government, a return to the discipline shown by all parties in Northern Ireland over the past 20 years, which has been considerable and very worth while. May we all plead for that?

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

My Lords, for a number of years when I was on the IMC I focused a great deal on the monitoring of paramilitary organisations. Is the Minister aware that the balance and order of things in this Statement could potentially be misleading? It focuses heavily on the question of whether there has been IRA activity, as though that was the real primary cause of the current crisis, when in truth this crisis has been developing for months and months over the failure of the political parties—particularly the two leading political parties—to work together in a proper governmental way. This recent event is important, but it should not be allowed to distract us from the fact that if it were magicked away tomorrow morning, the problems would remain.

Secondly, is the Minister aware that even if welfare reform were taken back to Westminster—and if it has to be so, I certainly would not oppose it—that would still leave a complete breakdown in the relationship between the Democratic Unionist Party leadership and the Sinn Fein leadership? Without a working relationship together, the devolved structures will not be able to continue, whether or not they have a problem of welfare and whether or not there is any indication of IRA activity. One must say that Sinn Fein has said the kind of things that many people wanted it to say for years on the IRA: that this was criminal activity; that people should go to the police with information; and that there was absolutely no justification. The Statement refers to “politically motivated violence”, but I have the sense that everything we know about this incident means that it was personally motivated violence rather than for the purpose of destabilising Northern Ireland.

Therefore, will the Minister take back to his colleagues who are engaged in this process that we do not need another monitoring commission or another short-term political fix but a change in the kind of relationships there are between the senior leaderships of the DUP and Sinn Fein? If not, we will be faced, as the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, has suggested, with legislation in this place to take back powers, which would be a disaster.

Anonymous Registration (Northern Ireland) (No. 2) Order 2014

Debate between Lord Alderdice and Lord McAvoy

Monday 30th June 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for stepping into the breach at very short notice, on this occasion to ensure that the regulations can go forward promptly and that everything is in place in good time for the elections in 2015. I welcome that.

However, many people looking on from outside may find it a little strange that, after 30 or 40 years in which peoples’ lives were very much at risk, including anyone coming into the public eye for any purpose, it is now, when one hopes that we are at the other side of the peace process, that we are introducing anonymous registration. To some extent, the reason is that it has been introduced in the rest of the United Kingdom and this order ensures that Northern Ireland is not out of kilter.

I hope that that turns out to be the only good reason for it. One worry of very recent times has been that, perhaps out of a fear of pressing the nuclear button of sectarianism between Protestants and Catholics and unionists and nationalists, some nefarious individuals have turned their attention to others who have come into the community from other parts of the European Union and elsewhere, and we have seen a rise in the kind of racism and xenophobia that we have not previously seen in Northern Ireland. Tragically, every few days, one sees intimidation of people from other parts of Europe and the world. I hope that some of the campaigns that we have been trying to develop in recent times, including the Unite Against Hate campaign and others, will have a positive effect that ensures that anonymous registration is merely a harmonisation measure and not one that is necessary for the situation in Northern Ireland.

However, in general terms, I welcome this and the other instruments, which will put the house in order in time for elections next year.

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, I join the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, for stepping in at such short notice. He is welcome to the Northern Ireland brief, even though it might be temporary—but we never know what fate awaits us.

Her Majesty’s Opposition, in the spirit of consensus and bipartisanship over Northern Ireland, also support the statutory instruments. Like the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, I have an “however”: however, this has been promised for quite a while. It has been a year since the miscellaneous provisions Bill was passed. The point was rightly made at the time on all sides that we wanted parity on anonymous donations, for instance, and anonymous registration. Has the Minister been briefed on what assessment has been made of what progress, if any, has been made towards removing anonymous registration and the provisions for anonymous donors?

As ever, we are at a delicate time in Northern Ireland, with a conference due on Wednesday which, we hope, will tackle the real outstanding issues in Northern Ireland which are blocking further progress. However, within the confines of security, which we fully understand, I am trying to get a feel for what assessment the Northern Ireland Office has made of the temperature in Northern Ireland, what is the nature of those assessments and what they entailed. I am also trying to get a feel for how active Northern Ireland Office Ministers have been in Northern Ireland itself. We all want them to be proactive—carefully proactive, but proactive. I would hate to get a sense that, for the past year, they have just sat on the situation and have not made any assessment of progress towards agreement on such statutory instruments.

I hope that I am not being unfair to the Minister—he is only just here—but can he undertake to give us in writing a summary of what Northern Ireland Office Ministers have been doing over the past year? We need a picture of the Secretary of State’s engagement, if any, with the Parades Commission, because that is a really sore point on both sides of the community divide. I am not looking for revelation of issues or contacts that would stir up the pot, if you like, but we need to ensure collectively here that Northern Ireland does not feel that Westminster is not bothering, not looking at it urgently and taking not an offhand approach—that would be unfair—but a light touch, when it needs to be a wee bit firmer.

We need to find out what the community approach would be. Several people have expressed concern to me about anonymous registration and anonymous donors. It seems that, a year later, we have stood still. Perhaps I am being unfair through lack of knowledge, but I should like to get some picture of what the Northern Ireland Office has been doing. If the noble Lord is unable to answer now, as I fully understand, I would appreciate a report in writing, because if we are proceeding to normalisation, why are we not moving a wee bit faster? Everybody—the SDLP, the Ulster Unionists, the DUP, the Government—says that they want it. What progress is being made? I should appreciate a response.

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Debate between Lord Alderdice and Lord McAvoy

Tuesday 4th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords—

[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, I do not want to address the technical aspects of the amendment, but I cannot let the opportunity pass without saying something about my appreciation of and gratitude to my noble friend Lady Randerson. Perhaps it is because of her distinguished service and experience in the Welsh Assembly, perhaps it is just because of the person that she is, perhaps it is because of the conscientious way in which she approaches her work, but, for whatever reason, she has shown great sensitivity to the difficult issues in devolution in a provincial part of our United Kingdom and to the complexity of the issues concerned. Nowhere was this better shown than in your Lordships’ House today, where she dealt with such extraordinary patience with all the difficulties, which were not immediately difficulties of the Bill, but were certainly difficulties with the context in which the Bill is passing in Northern Ireland. The patience that she showed in her responses reminded me a little of George Mitchell and the sort of patience that he had to show at a much earlier stage in the whole process. She has been an exemplar in that regard.

It is also the case that no predecessor for a very long time has had to take a Bill on Northern Ireland here through all the normal stages and passage of time. I see the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, nodding his head, because he was very familiar with those times and that work in Northern Ireland. The Minister, her officials and, indeed, the Secretary of State in the other place, have listened carefully and responded as far as they felt able. Even to our questions today, I think that she responded as far as it was possible to do given the difficulties and complexity of the problem. I express my sincere appreciation for all that she has done, in the knowledge that she will continue to serve in this House for Northern Ireland—and for other places, but from Northern Ireland’s perspective I express my appreciation.

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Debate between Lord Alderdice and Lord McAvoy

Tuesday 25th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

My Lords, in Committee I made it clear that I was very supportive of the principle of establishing an Opposition in the Northern Ireland Assembly. I remain of that view. In fact, I think it could be a very helpful improvement and evolution of the constitutional arrangements. It is clear that Standing Orders in the Assembly can accommodate this. When the Assembly was first established it had a very flimsy little pamphlet of Standing Orders. It was very important that the Assembly on all sides agreed to a process of negotiating and ultimately passing Standing Orders with cross-community support in the Assembly. That meant that all Members of the Assembly felt they were their Standing Orders. I would prefer to try to find that way forward. I do not accept the proposition that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, referred to about this being an imposition. I agree with him that this is not about imposition; it is about facilitation. The dilemma is, as he described, that it requires the larger parties in the Assembly to buy into the proposition before his amendment, even if passed, would come into operation. It is a bit of a Catch-22 situation. To achieve the things he and the noble Lords, Lord Lexden and Lord Trimble, want to achieve will require a process of negotiation between the party or parties that wish to have the possibility of being an Official Opposition and the current parties of government. Of course, these things can change—they have changed since the agreement, with the size of parties and their influence and so on.

Is there any leverage? I think there is considerable leverage. For example the Ulster Unionist Party, which is no longer as substantial in this House as it once was, has a substantial number of Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly and indeed has ministerial positions. It would be possible to negotiate with the two largest parties in the Assembly on the basis that, as vacating ministerial presence on the Executive to take up opposition status would be to the advantage of the other parties, appropriate recognition as the Opposition would be sought in return.

This leads me to two areas where I feel some dissatisfaction with the specifics of this amendment. First, there is the suggestion that a party with one Member could become the Official Opposition. I would rather see a slightly higher bar than that in the Northern Ireland Assembly. The idea that a single Member could form a party of their own and have the status of Official Opposition seems unwise. There should be some more substantial number; it is going to be a bit arbitrary whatever it is, but one is both arbitrary and unwise. I can think of many individual Members of the Assembly who might choose to adopt that status and create merry hell for everyone, including themselves and the Speaker. I would rather that there were more.

The second is related to that: the special position that is accorded in the chairmanship of committees, as suggested in the amendment. Again, for a very small party of one or two people to be able to corral those significant positions seems unwise. However, I emphasise again that the principle that is being supported by the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Lexden, and indeed the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, is one that anyone who wants to see the evolution of the Assembly should espouse, and if there are things that can be done by the Secretary of State and our own Minister here or by others in your Lordships’ House to move that forward, we should certainly do so. However, I remain to be persuaded that this amendment is going to take us in quite the direction and for quite the distance that its proposers might hope.

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, in Committee there was a broad consensus—that is the key word—that the creation of an Opposition, or the allocation of opposition rights to parties in Stormont, lay within the scope of the Assembly and could be achieved through its Standing Orders. That consensus is again confirmed today. The Assembly’s Standing Orders have the power to grant informal recognition to non-executive parties in the Assembly on a proportional basis. There was also unanimous agreement as to the value of opposition and the additional effectiveness that an Opposition would bring to scrutinising the Executive and holding it to account. In fact, “consensus” appears to be the key word in this discussion.

In Committee, several noble Lords raised concerns about the vulnerability of any arrangements that were determined solely by Stormont. Concerns were also raised about the efficacy of the Assembly’s committees, particularly the chairmanship and deputy chairmanship of the Public Accounts Committee. The current amendment represents an understandable attempt to overcome those anxieties. By placing the creation of Standing Orders that grant opposition status within the Northern Ireland Act 1998, and by making it impossible for the Assembly to revoke official opposition status, the independence of an Opposition would appear to be guaranteed. Through this amendment, any Opposition would not be dependent on the continued good will of the Assembly for their status and associated rights. Bearing in mind the word of the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice—“evolution”, which is particularly relevant—that might not be welcomed.

We all wish to see the continued normalisation of politics within Northern Ireland. Great strides have been made. It is a rocky road at times but it is still a great road to be on. However, as I have said before, the situation and structures in Northern Ireland are unique. It is for this reason that I and the Official Opposition share the doubts mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice. Is this the way ahead? Unless you are sure about something, you should not support it in Northern Ireland.

After so much division, the 1998 agreement established an Assembly and Executive in Northern Ireland that would be inclusive and make decisions consensually. These very same principles apply to the creation of an Opposition within the Assembly today. It is not a case of hiding behind the mantra of devolution. Devolution has a capital “D”. It is not a mantra. It is an effective way of delivering power and devolving power down in a very centralised society, which the United Kingdom can be at times.

In June 2013 the Assembly and Executive Review Committee concluded that, as yet, no cross-community consensus had been reached. This followed a government consultation in 2012 that reached the same conclusions.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, I had not intended to speak in this debate, but when I heard the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Browne, and the reservations of the noble and learned Lords, Lord Carswell and Lord Hope of Craighead, I felt that it was important to address the question of devolution and what the devolution doctrine means. It does not seem to be admissible of an entirely legal constitutional interpretation. It does not seem to be a matter of saying, “We’re devolved; we don’t have to give any kind of explanation to anyone for what we do. We can simply make arbitrary decisions”. It was not ever intended for that purpose. It was intended in general terms, and in particular in Northern Ireland, to ensure that decisions were made on a cross-community basis that ensured that the governance of Northern Ireland took into account the particular circumstances of Northern Ireland and its particular needs—domestically, within the United Kingdom, in relation to the Republic of Ireland and in relation to its relatively remote status. There are many areas where devolved government appropriately makes different decisions because, in terms of education, healthcare, transport or agriculture, the situation is different economically, practically, culturally, socially or whatever.

In certain circumstances, the notions adumbrated by the noble and learned Lords, Lord Carswell and Lord Hope, are completely correct, and their cautions in those circumstances would be well taken. The purpose of devolution is to enable that kind of differentiation. However, no reason has been given by the Northern Ireland Executive for this delay and for holding back. The noble Lord, Lord Browne, very appropriately supported his party in its decision on this matter, but even he did not give any good reasons why he should not fall in with the operation of the new Defamation Act in the rest of the United Kingdom. Nor, as far as I am aware, has there been any public debate at home in Northern Ireland, any indication that an agreement has been reached or any reasons adduced why we should not move forward—on the contrary, there has simply been an arbitrary decision that we are not going to go ahead on this. Then—and the noble Lord, Lord Browne, presented this in a very positive way—we will have this local consultation. That is fine if it is to ensure that there is real local difference, but it is not fine if the consultation kicks the issue into the long grass, and there is a suspicion that that is what it is all about.

On top of this, there are those circumstances where one can appropriately seal off Northern Ireland, as it were, to deal with particular issues. Animal health might be one. However, this issue cannot be dealt with in an isolated fashion. The whole point is that publication, whether digitally or in hard copy, cannot be isolated within Northern Ireland, and it puts everyone at risk if one tries to do that inappropriately.

I therefore want to emphasise that, although I appreciate the reasonable cautions, it does not seem to me that devolution is meant to enable the local devolved Executive to make arbitrary decisions without explanation or clarity, or decisions that are simply inappropriate to the circumstances. Then the question comes of how we deal with this. Do we deal with it by simply slamming something through this evening in your Lordships’ House and leaving somebody else to pick up the pieces—political or legal? I think not, but my noble friend Lord Trimble has pointed in the right direction. That is to say, whatever the limited remaining powers and opportunities of the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, one of the opportunities she has is to take the messages from this Palace to the Stormont Administration and say to them, “Do you realise how strongly people in the rest of the United Kingdom feel about this? They are not terribly accepting of the notion that you are going to take a whole lot of time to deal with this. If you want to take a little time to tweak it or for your own particular reasons, that may well be acceptable”. However, I would be assured and reassured by the Minister, not if she were to say that she was going to accept this—because I am sure that she is not going to be in a position to do that—but if she were able to say to us that the Secretary of State, her right honourable friend, will take seriously what has been said in your Lordships’ House tonight, convey that to the Northern Ireland Executive at the most senior levels, and ensure that the matter is taken seriously and expeditiously.

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, this has been a wide-ranging debate with speeches of quality. It further justifies the existence of this place, where such a measured debate can be held. The noble Lord, Lord Lexden, cited journalists as one of the main reasons why he was bringing this forward. I could think of many other occupations that have inspired more sympathy and understanding than journalists, but I take the point that he made. On a totally irrelevant point—and it is a good job that there is not a Lord Speaker to rule me out of order—I noticed that the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, invariably sits in a seat below the coat of arms of a former stadholder of Holland, better known as William III. I am sure it is entirely coincidental, but it many ways it is quite appropriate.

This is the second lengthy discussion we have had on this issue and I am sure I will be shot down in flames with my intervention, but there we are. I will repeat the point I made in Committee—that the extension of the Defamation Act is a devolved matter. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, made a powerful point about the nature and state of devolution as a principle, and it is a principle. Nevertheless, I place on record immediately that the Labour Opposition favour the introduction of the Act as quickly as possible and will seek assurances from the Minister as to how she intends to pursue that matter.

It is clear that the extension of the Defamation Act 2013 to Northern Ireland stands firmly in the competence of the Stormont Assembly. It is through the Assembly’s passing of a legislative consent Motion, not an Act of Parliament, that the Defamation Act 2013 will come into force in Northern Ireland. The noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, said, if I am picking him up right—and, as a former forklift truck driver in a factory, I hesitate to cross legal swords with him—that devolution was a flawed principle. As a lay person, I do not understand the concept of attacking it on that basis. A free Parliament passed that law; a free Parliament passed devolution and a free Parliament has a right to make mistakes and will make mistakes, as the noble Lord, Lord King, knows well. The principle of devolution was passed by a free Parliament, and we in the Opposition recognise that and are very reluctant to get involved in laying down the law to a devolved Assembly. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, quite rightly mentioned the reaction in Scotland if London—in parentheses, England—tried to “dictate” to the Scottish Parliament on a devolved issue. We can have legal debates and highly principled debates here but, if we do not understand the nature of the political impact of the things that we try to do, that would be a flawed approach.

Northern Ireland Act 1998 (Devolution of Policing and Justice Functions) Order 2012

Debate between Lord Alderdice and Lord McAvoy

Wednesday 18th July 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, I immediately declare that the Official Opposition are in support of this move. It is worth spending a minute or so on how we got here. As the Minister rightly said, the devolution of policing and justice was a huge achievement after long and painstaking negotiations. I was long enough in the other place to remember the commendable efforts of the Government led by Sir John Major in initiating this process. When Labour came to power, we knew how sensitive and complicated all these issues were. We worked with all parties and the Irish Government to ensure that the transfer of power and the creation of a new Department of Justice in Northern Ireland were stable and sustainable.

David Ford is doing a very good job in difficult circumstances. He has the full support of Vernon Coaker, shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, in carrying out his challenging and important job. He and the Northern Ireland Executive have done good work in continuing progress in building peace. However, the violence of last week, most notably in Belfast, where 20 police officers were injured, shows that there is much to be done. Parading and areas of dispute around parades have a knock-on effect on community relations and the terrorist threat. Heightened tensions mean heightened security and we should all be aware of the desire of dissident republicans to wreck the peace process. I pay tribute to the Police Service of Northern Ireland for the courage and determination they show every day to protect and serve everyone in Northern Ireland.

Significant responsibilities on national security still lie with the Northern Ireland Office. The boundaries are sometimes blurred between what is national security and what is the responsibility of the devolved Administration and the PSNI. That is inevitable and part of the process. We all know that there are no cut-and-dried, easy solutions in Northern Ireland. In the attempt to take everyone with us, there will be blurred edges.

This order is an attempt to do something about that, and my contribution today will be mainly to ask some questions. I am not quite sure of one or two things. I apologise for that. I am new to this job and to studying the legislation affecting Northern Ireland. I hope to learn quickly enough. Article 7 says:

“(2) In paragraph (1) for ‘Secretary of State’ substitute ‘Department of Justice’.

(3) In paragraph (2) for ‘Secretary of State’ substitute ‘appropriate authority’”.

Is there a reason why these cannot both be allocated to the Department of Justice? In paragraph (4), can the areas of authority be defined a bit better between the Department of Justice and the Secretary of State? Can this section be explained a bit better? I do not quite grasp why the responsibility lies where it does.

In Article 14, there seems to be some dubiety about the status of the National Policing Improvement Agency. I am informed by our Home Office spokesman that the agency is being abolished as part of the Crime and Courts Bill. If it is being abolished, why is it mentioned here?

Apart from these questions, the Official Opposition fully support this move. It makes further progress in devolution in Northern Ireland and we are fully supportive of the Government’s actions.

[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, I, too, support this small piece of legislation. I do not think it is particularly contentious, but I would like to use the opportunity to pick up on some matters of devolution.

As the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, has said, a considerable amount of work has been done in ensuring that these last few pieces of the devolution of policing and justice functions are completely satisfactorily. When my predecessor as leader of the Alliance Party, Sir Oliver Napier, was Minister of Law Reform in the ill fated 1974 power-sharing Executive, one of the key problems was that policing and justice functions had not been devolved. Therefore, when things got out of control it was, partly at least, because the power-sharing Assembly did not have the possibility of enforcing its own rule. When my successor as leader of the Alliance Party, David Ford, became Minister of Justice, it was in the context of agreement on the devolution of policing and justice—something that Seamus Mallon, the deputy leader of the SDLP and later Deputy First Minister, pointed out was the absolutely critical thing in ensuring that there was a serious and stable devolution settlement. He was right about that, although for a long period it was believed that it was so contentious that it was quite impossible. There was an element of truth in that. Without other political agreements, perhaps it was impossible.

However, there is one aspect of policing that remains contentious and difficult, when many others are now able to be discussed—a policing board, district policing partnerships and so on. It was the aspect referred to by the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, in which I have been slightly involved lately—the question of contentious parades. These are not easy matters, as all noble Lords around the Room know very well. One of the things that struck me is that some of those who have been saying in strident terms that the problem is mistaken judgments by the Parades Commission have had least to say in terms of proposals for better decisions by a Parades Commission or another body. I am not sure that I see another way of addressing this problem until we find ourselves considering another instrument that is devolving responsibility to the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister or to the Executive itself.

For as long as there is a Parades Commission that is acting independently and where elected representatives at the most senior level do not have responsibility for decisions being taken about these issues, but policing itself has to gather up the problems, we will continue to have this kind of contention. I should like to ask the Minister whether, if this order goes through—as I have no doubt it will—he will take back to his right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and other colleagues a proposal that they look seriously at the devolution of responsibility to the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister whereby they would have to resolve the problem of parades. Some might say, “That is impossible”, but some would have said that about policing in general. It is not a sustainable position, when people are appointed to make difficult decisions and are backed up by the Government here in London, that those decisions are always second-guessed by way of criticism without there being any specific proposal for a realistic alternative decision.

I hear each side saying that the answer is for the fellows on the other side to back down. We were very used to that in the past, but there must come a time when we will have another devolution order in this place that will put the responsibility back to where it actually belongs, the elected representatives of the people of Northern Ireland to make decisions about these matters and then to live with them.

However, I want to say how much I back this order and how striking it is that an issue involving devolution of policing and justice, modest as it is, is no longer a matter of contention.

[Lord McAvoy]

Has the noble Lord had any thoughts about the process that could be used by the First Minister and Deputy First Minister to arrive at conclusions?

[Lord Alderdice]

I am hesitant because, of course, as soon as one makes a proposal, the likely response is to knock it down. However, I make the following observations. First, it is clear that the elected representatives did have a set of proposals that they were prepared to bring to the Assembly but which the Orange Order at that stage was not prepared to accept. I believe that the Orange Order has come some distance since that time and, in my discussions, properly mandated representatives of the Orange Order engaged with local nationalist constituents. That would not have happened some years ago. It was a promising thing, even if agreement was not able to be reached. I encourage the First and Deputy First Ministers and the parties in the Assembly to pick their proposals up and to try to push them through.