Shawcross Report: Compensation for Victims

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Monday 8th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, in accordance with international law, when assets are frozen they continue to belong to the sanctioned individual or entity—in this case, the Libyan state. Any revenue raised specifically from frozen assets would have gone into the Government’s Consolidated Fund. I assure the noble Lord that the victims of such actions, and terrorism, are very much at the front of the Government’s mind and we will seek to continue to support victims across the piece when it comes to issues of terrorism.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I served on the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board for Great Britain until 1992. There was then a concurrent scheme for Northern Ireland, which was subject to a strict one-year limitation period for claiming, without any discretion to extend, save for children. Would it not be desirable now—particularly if the Government are in receipt of income from frozen Libyan assets in the way of tax—to open up a window of, say, six months, for claiming on an ex gratia basis for those who were too terrified or intimidated to claim as victims of terrorist acts at the time?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I note what the noble Lord has said but, as he will appreciate, I cannot respond to the specific terms of his proposals. He will be aware that in January 2020, in the absence of the Northern Ireland Executive, the UK Government did legislate to establish a victims’ payment scheme. The Northern Ireland Executive are responsible for delivering the scheme, which will be open for applications from March 2021.

Hong Kong: National Security Law

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Thursday 7th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]]

My Lords, as the noble Lord will be aware, we look at the sanctions policy specifically to ensure that the evidence base and thresholds are met. As I said, while I cannot go into specifics, we will continue to keep the situation under review—and, yes, act in co-ordination with our allies, including the United States, whose actions we observe closely in this respect.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD) [V]]

My Lords, Title XII in Part 3 of the UK’s new deal with the EU provides that if the UK has “denounced”—that is the word used—the European Convention on Human Rights, the whole of Part 3 and all the security provisions cease to have force. Will the Government make representations to the European Commission not to approve the EU-China trade deal now before it unless there is a similar provision requiring China to abide by the current Hong Kong bill of rights—specifically its Article 16, on freedom of expression, and Article 17, on freedom of assembly? Will the Government ensure a similar provision in any trade deal between the UK and China?

Hong Kong: Legislative Council

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Thursday 12th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD) [V]]

The offence of the four lawmakers who were expelled without legal process from LegCo—two barristers, an accountant and a medical consultant—was that they had allegedly supported requests to the US to impose sanctions on China for its interference in Hong Kong. What about this country? The United Kingdom signed the bilateral joint declaration, which by Article 3 guarantees the rights and freedoms of Hong Kong citizens. Does the Minister agree that we have a moral and imperative duty to take action now, not just to wring our hands—to impose sanctions or to take China to the International Court of Justice, as my noble friend suggested earlier?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord raises Article 3, and that is exactly what we are pressing: that China must uphold its international obligations. I have already covered the point on the ICJ; we will continue to work on a multilateral basis and bilaterally in raising this issue with Chinese authorities and the Hong Kong special administrative region as well.

Jammu and Kashmir: Human Rights

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Monday 2nd November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, as I have already said, we raise concerns about human rights in Indian-administered Kashmir regularly and constructively with the Indian Government. I agree with the noble Lord—I am sure I speak for all noble Lords on this—that we condemn, without any hesitation, all forms of terrorism. Any targeting of a community because of its religious rights or beliefs is totally against the norms of any functioning democracy.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD) [V]]

Is the Minister aware that hundreds of applications for habeas corpus have been lodged in the High Court of Jammu and Kashmir over a 15-month period, arising out of the arbitrary detention without trial of thousands of people —including, as we have heard, political and community leaders—under the public safety Act? The court rules specify a 14-day time limit from lodging an application to the hearing. They have not even been listed, let alone dealt with. This is especially urgent since the shocking wave of arrests on 28 October. Will Her Majesty’s Government join the Jammu and Kashmir High Court Bar Association in its strenuous protests to the Indian authorities against these breaches of the United Nations human rights convention?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the United Kingdom Government are clear. We have a constructive and strong relationship with India which allows us to raise candidly and privately issues of human rights abuses, wherever they may occur, or human rights concerns we may have. As I have said, any allegation of human rights abuses must be investigated thoroughly, promptly and transparently. We make that point to the Indian authorities.

China

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Wednesday 22nd July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, on the noble Baroness’s first point, as I have already said, I will not speak about what future designations may be. However, I agree with the noble Baroness; I think we have all been appalled by some of the scenes we have seen recently across the media on the treatment of the Uighurs. They were quite chilling in every respect. On the issue of access to Xinjiang, work was done previously looking at the human rights commissioner visiting China, and I hope that that will come to fruition at some future point.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I declare an historic interest, having fought a case against extradition from the UK to Hong Kong for four and a half years through 12 separate applications for habeas corpus. A senior Hong Kong solicitor told me today that almost all the extradition proceedings now current are concerned with either money laundering or drugs. Now that we have terminated extradition in both directions, how do we ensure that Britain does not become a safe haven for Hong Kong criminals, nor Hong Kong a safe haven for those committing crimes in the UK? Would it not be sensible to have a generous approach to claims for political asylum by young protestors from Hong Kong who do not qualify to come here as a BNO?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, on the noble Lord’s second point, the United Kingdom has been, is and will remain a place where people from all over the world seek asylum for a number of reasons. Each case is judged on its merits, and we have provided protection to many people across the world who have suffered persecution.

ISIS: Trial of British Citizens

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Wednesday 28th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)]

The Minister will be aware that there is jurisdiction under the International Criminal Court Act 2001 to try war crimes in this country for British nationals, but it has so far been used only against British soldiers. Is there any reason why it should not be used against British nationals who have formed part of ISIS?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

On the issue of the process that would be used, as I said, the underlying principle and approach that the Government have taken is to ensure that whoever is tried, and wherever they are tried, it is done so according to the principles of international humanitarian law. All pathways in that regard will be considered.

Hong Kong

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Wednesday 24th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord is right to raise these issues and while the economic case that the Chinese have made for the high-speed rail link is clear, it is also important that the final arrangements are and remain consistent with the one country, two systems framework. We understand that the Hong Kong Bar Association and the Law Society of Hong Kong have also raised concerns about the legal basis for this proposal, and we continue to urge both the Chinese and the Hong Kong special administrative region to ensure that the agreement, which stands with international recognition, continues to be abided by.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)]

My Lords, for those of us who love Hong Kong and really appreciate the energy and vitality of its people, will the Government impress on the Chinese Government that the special position of Hong Kong and its prosperity depend upon the rule of law and its maintenance, and that anything done to undermine that—fortunately, we still have an independent judiciary there—is likely to ruin Hong Kong’s prosperity in international trade everywhere in the world?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord is quite right and I agree with him totally. Let me assure him that we continue to address this issue through the Chinese authorities, bilateral meetings and the Hong Kong authorities. The Chief Executive of Hong Kong, for example, visited last September and in every meeting she had during that visit—indeed, my right honourable friend Sajid Javid visited Hong Kong last November—the very point the noble Lord makes about sustaining, strengthening and upholding the rule of law was clearly made to the Chinese authorities.

Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 21st November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The point I was making was about the implication in the current wording of “appropriate”. This is not an open invitation for a Minister to impose sanctions, and the appropriateness of imposing sanctions is qualified in the context in which they must be applied. That was why I referred to the specific section that I did.

I think I have made the point already that the concern would remain. Several noble Lords have referred to the Constitution Committee and the Delegated Powers Committee. We have received those reports as well, and I assure noble Lords that I am not dismissing them. We are reflecting very carefully on the representations made by both committees because it is important that we respond carefully and after detailed consideration of what is being put forward. As I said right at the start of my remarks, I will reflect very carefully and will very much bear in mind the voices and experience of those who have tabled these amendments. We certainly remain of the thinking that the current wording, with the balances and the qualifications in the context of the legislation as presented, means that this is not an open invitation for a Minister to apply a sanction. However, in the context of the two reports, I will of course look again at the basis on which perhaps we can look to qualify, and provide greater certainty in respect of, the language used.

Amendment 1A, tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Sheehan and Lady Northover, would require there to be a “compelling” reason why sanctions are appropriate for the purposes set out under subsection (2), which relates to non-UN sanctions. I agree with the sentiment behind this amendment and note that it reflects a specific recommendation of the Delegated Powers Committee. However, adding the requirement for a “compelling” reason might also give rise to some of the difficulties I have already highlighted in respect of the previous amendment.

As I said, we think that in matters of foreign affairs and security policy the Government should have discretion about when it is appropriate to act. This amendment would effectively remove some of that discretion. We also believe that it could restrict our ability to work with international partners to ensure that sanctions are effective. In some cases, sanctions may be more compelling for our international partners than for the UK, but it would undermine the effect of sanctions if we were not able to participate or agree to them being applied multilaterally. I am sure that all noble Lords will recognise that perspective. If the UK was unable to act, this could in turn undermine the UK’s relationships with our international partners.

Amendment 23 deals with a similar issue, but in relation to UN sanctions only. I think there is agreement on all sides of the Committee that it is appropriate that the UK can continue to comply with its international obligations, so I doubt there is much between us on this issue. We think “necessary” would in many cases be acceptable in that place in the Bill. However, we also think it is important that where the UN provides some flexibility about how to implement obligations, the Government should have the flexibility to decide how best to do so. The word “appropriate” provides that flexibility.

It should be noted that the power here is broadly consistent with the equivalent provision in Section 1 of the United Nations Act 1946, which enables Ministers to,

“make such provision as appears to”,

them,

“necessary or expedient for enabling”,

measures in UN Security Council resolutions “to be effectively applied”. It should also be noted that the word “appropriate” does not enable Ministers to do whatever they want. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, referred to the Ahmed case, which I know he knows well. That demonstrated that the courts will take a robust approach to scrutinising the exercise of the Executive’s powers.

I have already alluded to the fact that we have received the reports of both the Constitution Committee and the Delegated Powers Committee. I put it on record that we will consider both committees’ recommendations very carefully. I have also listened carefully to the contributions during the course of this short debate, and I am sure we will explore the issues further as we scrutinise the Bill in Committee.

It says here, “I hope I have been able to convince noble Lords”, but, from looking around the Chamber, I think that would be a rather hopeful word to use at this juncture. Perhaps I have provided noble Lords with a degree of reassurance with some of the explanations that I have given about the context in which the sanctions would apply, but I respect and understand that there would be a need for continued parliamentary scrutiny and for ensuring, as I am sure all noble Lords appreciate, that the UK continues to comply with international law and maintains a leading role in international affairs after the UK’s exit from the EU.

As I said, we will continue to consider very carefully the recommendations of the two committees, and I am sure we will return to this issue in discussion with noble Lords. Again, there are important issues of discussion here. Both in the course of the Committee stage of the Bill and in the meetings that we are having beyond the Chamber, I am sure we will reach a means of moving forward constructively on this basis. The ultimate purpose and objectives of the sanctions regime are something that I know all noble Lords respect. Based on that, I hope the noble Lords will be minded at this juncture to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)]

My Lords, I am pleased to hear the Minister confirm that this House has the power to vote down statutory instruments. Indeed, if the Government continued to pursue policy goals through secondary legislation, that procedure would become much more widely used than it has been in the past without the suggestion that the British constitution was being undermined.

The Minister has said that these powers have been taken in the pursuit of Foreign Office goals. A memorandum from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, dated 19 October last, was sent to the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. Paragraph 52 says, under the heading “Justification for taking the powers”:

“The Government therefore considers it necessary and appropriate to provide framework powers that enable detailed sanctions regimes to be set out in secondary legislation”.


If the justification for taking the powers must be necessary and appropriate, why is the same test not to be applied to the exercise of those powers?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I thank the noble Lord for his late but important contribution. As I said to the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, I was stating the position as is, regarding the context in which both Houses of Parliament can vote on statutory instruments. In the case of your Lordships’ House, it is clearly laid out in the Companion as well. Let us also put this into context: if a sanctions regime were being proposed and it were voted down in both Houses, the sanction itself would fall and would not apply. The context is not something that can be ignored. In the context of the second question, the noble Lord—

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Perhaps I can read into what the noble Baroness seeks on this occasion. This is not an issue about both Houses or affirmative instruments. The position I have given is not the Government’s position; it is the position as it stands now. If she needs further elaboration, I respectfully refer her to the House of Lords Companion.

To return to the noble Lord’s final question, if I may, I will write on the specific issue that he raised for the purpose of clarity for all Members of your Lordships’ House.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

The noble Lord said that my intervention was late. This is Committee, and the advantage of Committee is that Members may reply to the Minister after he has made his contribution.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

As ever, as I said, we live and learn. The noble Lord is of course right in this context: during Committee, any noble Lord can speak and intervene as appropriate.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I thank my noble friend for his intervention. He speaks from experience and, as someone who spent 20 years in the financial services sector, I am acutely aware of the challenges presented by the issue of designations. I will of course take his suggestion and reflect upon it. To address particularly the point raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, this would be the exception. It would not be the norm but would be to cover situations that do occur and have occurred. I have sought in my response to illustrate the circumstances in which that would occur and, based on that, I hope that at this time the noble and learned Lord will be minded to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

Can the Minister explain what the point is of having sanctions if you do not know who they are against? I am looking again at the memorandum to which I referred earlier, which says in paragraph 44:

“Designated persons attract individual sanctions, including asset freezes. Designations are an effective way of coercing or constraining individuals who are directly involved or closely associated with the activity or behaviour targeted by the sanctions. The Government would intend to publish the names of designated persons on a list on its website, and would also notify those persons, where possible, in accordance with clause 1. There are currently around 2000 designated persons under existing sanctions regimes implemented by the UK”.


If that is the purpose of it—to coerce or constrain individuals when you do not know who they are—how can these sanctions be effective in any way?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I suggest to the noble Lord that if there is a person who is not named but is connected to a group on which that sanction is being observed, that would stop them carrying out particular actions. It would ensure that that sanction was effective.

Wales: Economy

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Monday 7th April 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, I, too, congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, on obtaining this debate. Perhaps it is a good thing that it is limited to the Welsh economy, because it would be dangerous for her to refer, for example, to the National Health Service in Wales. The noble Baroness, Lady Gale, has just referred to the Welsh Labour Party conference in Llandudno. In his speech to that conference the First Minister, Mr Carwyn Jones, said that there were “difficult truths” about the NHS in Wales, and that examples of poor care in Welsh hospitals were unacceptable. He conceded that there was complacency at the top of local health boards, and said that Labour Ministers must “hold up” their,

“hands and say, yes we could have done better”.

We sometimes seem to be living in a different country when I hear the Welsh Government praised. The debate might also have been about the state of Welsh education, on which topic in the same speech Mr Jones had no answers but said that the schools system had “coasted” for too long. We once thought we led Britain in educational attainment, but the reality today is that we have fallen too far behind.

What was the First Minister’s answer to these criticisms? To declare that any criticism of his Government was the work of a Tory elite waging war on Wales. Labour, he said, was on the front line of the war on Wales. How pathetic is that, and how disappointing to hear that empty rhetoric, that newspaper headline, being used in this House? I have to say that it causes me great dismay.

The Welsh economy is in need of serious overhaul. The Welsh Labour and Labour-Plaid Administrations in Cardiff Bay have not placed enough emphasis on equipping Wales with the infrastructure and the skills necessary to compete globally. The economy has serious longstanding structural problems. There was a time when Wales attracted inward investment from foreign countries on the basis of low labour costs and low land costs, but that was not sustainable and it is no longer a unique selling point for Wales, nor should it be.

Transport infrastructure is of course crucial. In government, the Liberal Democrats pressed for the electrification of both the Great Western main line as far as Swansea and the totality of the valley lines. The decision has now been taken with the support of the Prime Minister, as my noble friend said. However, it now appears that the Welsh Labour Government are reneging on their financial undertakings to support that development.

What about the rest of Wales? Money is certainly promised for a new line for the M4 motorway across the Gwent levels and relief for the Newport tunnels, but in north Wales, plans to dual the railway line between the two vital business hubs of Chester and Wrexham and their surrounding industrial areas have been scrapped, while we can whistle for the electrification of the north Wales rail line, which carries freight to Ireland. That line is not part of the strategic freight network at all.

An excellent survey was published last weekend by the Welsh policy unit of the Federation of Small Businesses. It accepts that the British economy is recovering: 14% fewer of its Welsh members identify the economy as a barrier to growth than in its previous survey in 2011. However, the comparison in the survey between the views of their members in Wales and those of their members in the rest of the UK is revealing. Significantly, more businesses in Wales are concerned about the cost of finance, and indeed of obtaining finance at all, to expand and develop their enterprises and create more jobs. We would look for a creative solution to that from the Welsh Labour Government, but there is none. Businesses, it appears, are hit by higher business rates than in England, which, with falling rental values, leads to the dereliction of so many of our towns across Wales, as we know as Welsh people.

There is also great concern in the business community about the provision of fast and reliable broadband access. Our digital infrastructure, which should allow business to grow and compete in a global market, is not developed in Wales. We have languished at the bottom of the UK league tables for broadband speeds for years, and we have suffered with a lower proportion of households able to access broadband than any other part of the UK. I wait to hear what is the new initiative to which the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, referred, to see what it produces or whether the Welsh Government will be holding their hands up again on that issue.

Many employers are concerned about the low skill levels in Wales, which affect productivity and are a source of competitive disadvantage. Basic skills attainment is lower in Wales than across the United Kingdom as a whole and 4% lower than in Scotland. Higher skills attainment is 3% lower than across the United Kingdom and 7% lower than Scotland. Wales is lagging behind. Where is the wonderful improvement to which the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, referred?

Taking the point of the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, Labour is allowing Wales to fall behind with regard to childcare. It has been said that 1 million women are missing from the United Kingdom workforce, because it does not make sense financially to go back to work. That is even more so in the case of Wales. The Family and Childcare Trust’s annual childcare survey of 2014 showed that childcare costs in England are falling in real terms for the first time in 12 years, while in Wales the cost of nursery care for under-twos has increased by nearly 12%. So there is a massive agenda—

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

The noble Lord’s time is up. This is a time-limited debate to 60 minutes. We can have a brief intervention, but my noble friend needs to conclude his remarks.

Stephen Ward

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Thursday 16th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, as I am sure the noble Lord is aware, on 2 December 2013 the human rights barrister Geoffrey Robertson QC submitted a review of this case to the Criminal Cases Review Commission, which is, of course, an independent public body set up in March 1997 by the Criminal Appeal Act. Its purpose is to review wrongful convictions. It is currently reviewing the case and it would be inappropriate for me to comment further.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)]

My Lords, the trial was fully reported in lascivious detail by the Times at the time in July and August 1963 with full-page and verbatim accounts of the cross-examination and the summing up. Accordingly, I see no reason why such papers as relate to the trial should not be released. Geoffrey Robertson said that Lord Parker, the then Lord Chief Justice—not the trial judge—had suppressed a transcript of the trial. Is that right? If so, under what power did he do so?