Palestinian Territories

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Hunt of Chesterton

Thursday 7th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, I join all noble Lords in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Steel, for tabling this debate and introducing it in such an exemplary manner, drawing on his insights and wide experience. I also thank noble Lords for all their contributions. As has been said, there may at times be differing opinions but I think the common cause is to bring peace, stability, prosperity and progress for all people across both Israel and Palestine. In this regard, let me say at the outset that while I have heard the opinions expressed in your Lordships’ House, the UK and the Government remain committed to supporting a negotiated peace settlement that leads to that viable, sovereign and stable Palestinian state, living alongside a safe, secure, prosperous and progressive Israel. Indeed, those adjectives we use for either side apply to both.

That is why we strongly support the state-building efforts of the Palestinian Authority in particular. When I visited Israel and Palestine recently, I made that very specific point, about the importance of the UK’s continuing support, to Prime Minister Hamdallah in Ramallah. That is why we continue to encourage the US Administration to bring forward detailed proposals for an Israeli-Palestinian settlement. The Government remain committed to the two-state solution as the best way to bring about stability and peace in the region and to realise the national aspirations of the Palestinian people.

While there was some talk of this debate being somewhat depressing at times, as an eternal optimist I never give up hope. In the contributions we have heard today, there is hope. Let me assure the noble Lord, Lord Hain—I address him directly—that I totally agree with him, as do the Government: we believe that the occupation in the Palestinian Territories is unacceptable and unsustainable. Anyone who has visited Israel and Palestine would make that assessment. A just and lasting resolution that ends occupation and delivers peace for both Israelis and Palestinians is long overdue.

My noble friend Lord Lothian also made the important point about commitment to the aspirations of the Palestinian people. Let me assure noble Lords that we are so committed. The recognition of the Palestinian state was raised by many noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Steel, in opening the debate, my noble friend Lord Cope, the noble Lords, Lord Ahmed, Lord Hannay, Lord Dykes and Lord Judd, and many more.

It is important that we see the creation of a sovereign, independent, democratic and viable Palestinian state. Our commitment to that vision is why the UK has been a leading donor, as many noble Lords have acknowledged, to the Palestinian Authority and such a strong supporter of the state-building efforts. For example, in 2017-18, UK aid to the Palestinian Authority helped pay the salaries of up to 30,000 teachers, doctors and nurses, midwives and other essential educators and public servants on the vetted list. I listened carefully to the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, who said he had had sight of my notes in the response I would give on recognition. The position of the Government, of course, remains the same at this time: we will formally recognise the state of Palestine when we believe it best serves the cause of peace.

I am the Minister for Human Rights, among my other responsibilities at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and I have listened very attentively to the expressions and sentiments of your Lordships’ House in what I believe has been a very meaningful and constructive debate: those sentiments have registered quite significantly. Recent events have prompted the tabling of this debate, and the events in Gaza are a case in point—the shocking violence at the border in mid-May, which tragically resulted in many Palestinian deaths and injuries, and the barrage of rocket attacks last week from Hamas and Islamic Jihad in Gaza, which indiscriminately targeted Israeli civilians.

[Lord Hunt of Chesterton (Lab)]

Were British arms used in these events?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

On our arms policy, as I have said repeatedly from the Dispatch Box, we always ensure that the most rigid processes are applied in terms of arms sales, not just to Israel but to other countries. We also seek those assurances when we are negotiating any deals we have with international partners.

I sought to visit Gaza on my last visit to Israel. It was extremely regrettable and, indeed, tragic but because of the escalating nature of the situation, that visit had to be cancelled literally in the morning. Nevertheless, I went to the Palestinian Territories and saw for myself in areas such as Hebron the challenges and the causes of suffering of many people across the Palestinian Territories. This is not something that Israel wants to see: Israel wants to see a resolution because resolutions require peace and peace will ultimately mean peace for both people. Both sides know that peace efforts will not be advanced by violence. As the noble Lord, Lord Singh of Wimbledon, started the account in his very poignant contribution I thought I was listening to “Thought for the Day”, but he made the very pertinent point that peace efforts cannot be advanced by violence.

Turning to some of the specific questions, the noble Baronesses, Lady Uddin and Lady Northover, raised the issue of the Human Rights Council and the resolution that was passed. The UK’s position was articulated by the noble Lord, Lord Collins. We listened very carefully to the debate which ensued and the reason we took the decision to abstain was that we did not feel that the resolution was balanced. It did not call for an investigation into the action of non-state actors, a point made in various ways by noble Lords during this debate. The noble Lord, Lord Collins, referred to the statement from my right honourable friend Alistair Burt on the United Kingdom’s co-operation with any such inquiry. As my right honourable friend stated, we are supporters of the Human Rights Council and continue to support the inquiry in this respect. The detail is still being worked through by the Human Rights Council.

On the specific case of Razan Al-Najjar, the medic who was serving in the Territories, in Gaza, raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, the noble Lord, Lord Ahmed, and the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, among others, I stand with all noble Lords in decrying any loss of innocent life anywhere in the world—Gaza is no exception—particularly those medics who put themselves in the line of fire. We stand together in solidarity in recognising their service and, in the case of Razan, her ultimate sacrifice. I assure noble Lords that in the meeting between Prime Ministers May and Netanyahu issues around Gaza were specifically raised. We understand there was a preliminary Israeli military investigation into this, but yesterday the Prime Minister reiterated the UK’s support for an independent, transparent investigation into events in Gaza during her meeting. The noble Lords, Lord Collins and Lord Warner, and the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, all spoke of its importance. The Human Rights Council has made this resolution, as I said earlier, about a commission. While the UK is not required formally to take any further action, as a supporter of the commission’s inquiry in general we will encourage parties to engage constructively with the Human Rights Council and all its mechanisms and processes.

The noble Lord, Lord Ahmed, and the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, referred to the ICC referral. We respect the independence of the prosecutor and her role in undertaking a preliminary examination into the situation in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. On 8 April, the prosecutor made a statement explaining that recent events and any future incidents may fall within the scope of this preliminary examination. In any event the UK fully supports and recognises the need for an independent and transparent investigation into the events that have taken place in recent weeks, including the extent to which Israeli security forces’ rules of engagement are in line with international law, and the role that Hamas played in the events.

On the issue of leadership on the Middle East peace process, the noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall, raised the role of the United Kingdom. On the situation in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, both parties must show bold leadership to help move us closer to the shared goal of peace. This includes taking steps to build an environment that is conducive to negotiations. In the first instance, that means both sides avoiding actions that undermine trust and threaten the viability of the two-state solution. On the Israeli side, this includes settlement activity and the demolition of Palestinian structures. This was mentioned specifically by the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan. As noble Lords will be aware, the UK Government consider Israeli settlement activity illegal under international law. Just last month the Israeli Government announced they are advancing plans to construct over 3,100 new settlement units, many deep within the West Bank. These include 120 housing units in Kiryat Arba, near Hebron, and over 90 units in the settlement of Kfar Adumim next door to Khan Al-Ahmar. As my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary made clear in his Statement, the UK is gravely concerned about further settlement in the West Bank. We urge the Israeli authorities to reconsider plans that undermine prospects for a two-state solution. Indeed, I made a point, when I visited Israel and Palestine, to visit one of these Bedouin camps.

I assure noble Lords that we have constructive dialogue with our Israeli counterparts. I have always found my engagement with Israeli Ministers to be constructive—yes, challenging at times but very respectful. I raised our concerns about the occupation when I met the Israeli Justice Minister Ayelet Shaked and Israeli Minister for Regional Cooperation, Tzachi Hanegbi, in April. The Minister for the Middle East raised his concerns with his Israeli counterparts during his visit last week, and the Foreign Secretary and Prime Minister have also made clear the UK’s opposition to the policy of settlement expansion to Prime Minister Netanyahu during meetings this week.

We have also repeatedly made it clear that we consider the demolition of Palestinian structures in the West Bank to be entirely unacceptable. In all but the most exceptional cases, demolitions are totally contrary to international humanitarian law. Every single demolition, or eviction of a Palestinian family from their home causes unnecessary suffering and calls into question Israel’s commitment to a viable two-state solution. The Government are particularly concerned by the imminent threat of demolition of the Bedouin village of Khan Al-Ahmar. This would pave the way for future settlement expansion in E1, directly threatening a two-state solution with Jerusalem as the shared capital. This community has lived there peacefully for many decades. We believe that demolishing the village is unnecessary and not the way to treat people with whom you want to live in peace.

The UK has repeatedly called on the Israeli authorities not to go ahead with these plans. The Minister for the Middle East, my right honourable friend Alistair Burt, visited Khan Al-Ahmar just last week, spoke about his concerns publicly in media engagements and raised them with Deputy Foreign Minister Hotovely. The Foreign Secretary released a strong statement setting out the UK’s position. Once again, we urge Israel to abide by international humanitarian law and stop its plans to demolish the community of Khan al-Ahmar.

As we know, Israeli settlements and demolitions are not the only obstacles to the two-state solution—or indeed to peace. As the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, and my noble friends Lord Leigh of Hurley, Lord Shinkwin and Lady Morris reminded us, terrorism and incitement also pose grave threats. On two days last week, 216 projectiles, rockets and mortar shells were fired from Gaza towards Israel—the worst attack since the 2014 war. They were fired indiscriminately at civilian targets, including towards a kindergarten—and a few landed in the kindergarten. We reiterate our belief that Israelis have the right to live free from the threat of terrorism. That is a view that I believe we all share. We therefore call on Hamas and other terrorist groups to end their attacks on Israel once and for all.

We also strongly condemn the use of hateful language that stirs up hatred and prejudice among communities, and incites violence. We therefore encourage both the Palestinian Authority and the Government of Israel to reject hate speech and incitement, and to prepare their people for peaceful coexistence, as the noble Lords, Lord Luce and Lord Anderson, called for, including by promoting a more positive portrayal of each other through education, cultural and human rights exchanges between civil society groups. I listened carefully to the contribution of my noble friend Lord Polak about the importance of economic co-operation. I will speak to him after the debate about the details of his proposal to provide that hope to Ali Jaffer. Violence against Palestinians by extremist settlers in the West Bank, including east Jerusalem, is also deeply concerning, despite stronger law enforcement by the Israeli authorities. We condemn this violence in the strongest terms.

All noble Lords talked about Gaza, and rightly so. It is a complex situation and we recognise Israel’s legitimate security concerns. At the same time, the restrictions imposed by Israel and Egypt on movement and access into and out of Gaza contribute significantly to the dire humanitarian situation. The UK will continue to work with Israel to get more goods into Gaza to alleviate the situation and stimulate economic activity. The noble Lord, Lord Palmer, talked about Egypt’s role in this process. We are encouraged that, during the holy month of Ramadan, which we are in the final and most poignant 10 days of, Egypt has opened up the Rafah crossing for this period. We therefore urge Israel, Egypt and the Palestinian Authority to work together to find a lasting solution to the situation in Gaza. In this regard, the UK welcomes the proposals of Nickolay Mladenov, the special representative of the UN Secretary-General.

I am conscious of time and there are many issues still to be covered. I will write to noble Lords. On human rights, the noble Baroness, Lady Janke, raised the issue of children. As Minister for Human Rights, I raised this issue directly with Ministers during my visit, particularly the military detention of children in the Occupied Territories, which is of particular concern to me. I pressed the Israeli Justice Minister, Ayelet Shaked, for improvements in their treatment when I met her in April. The UK continues to fund a number of human rights projects on this issue, including providing legal aid to minors, and capacity building.

Finally, I will set out what we are doing financially to support the Palestinians. My noble friend Lady Morris, the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, and the noble Lords, Lord Steel and Lord Hylton, spoke poignantly about this. We continue to support the Palestinian Authority. Last year our support enabled around 24,000 young Palestinians to get an education, and provided up to 3,700 immunisations for children and around 185,000 medical consultations. We recently announced a further £1.5 million of urgent humanitarian funding to the ICRC appeal to provide medical treatment for Gazans. This is in addition to our support though the United Nations Children’s Fund, to provide clean water and better sanitation for up to 1 million Gazans. We also remain a steadfast supporter of the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestinian refugees, which provides basic health and education services to 1.3 million people in Gaza, as well as 800,000 refugees in the West Bank. Last year the UK provided £50 million to support this initiative.

The noble Lords, Lord Judd and Lord Lea of Crondall, among others, raised the specific issue of Jerusalem. Jerusalem is often cited as a centre of conflict. It is also the centre, poignantly, of the three Abrahamic faiths: Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Its significance to those three faiths and those three peoples is immense. I remember as a young child, as a Muslim in a Christian school, being taught about Judaism. When I returned home, my mother put it poignantly to me: “The foundation of our faith, Tariq, is Judaism. Without the foundation of that house, the walls of Christianity could not be erected, and without the walls of Christianity, the roof of Islam would not complete the house of Abraham”. Perhaps therein lies the solution: Jerusalem, the city of peace—by name, by definition—bringing people together. I believe that this debate has added to the constructive and progressive dialogue that we are having on this important issue. As a good friend to both parties, the United Kingdom Government and I, as Minister for Human Rights, believe that there is a pivotal role to play in building that hope, for Israelis and Palestinians alike, for people of all faiths and none, to ensure that we build that peace—to build that Jerusalem.

Brexit: Sanctions Policy (European Union Committee Report)

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Hunt of Chesterton

Thursday 3rd May 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have participated in this important debate, particularly my noble friend Lady Verma for tabling it. I pay tribute to her long-standing commitment to these issues. That is not just in her capacity as chair of the EU External Affairs Sub-Committee as, on a personal note, I assure your Lordships that, over the different roles of my ministerial career, if my noble friend has had something to tell me I know about it very quickly. I appreciate her candid and honest advice at all times.

I thank all noble Lords for their expert insight into the debate. When I stand up to respond to a debate on any respect of the European Union I am reminded of the words of my noble friend Lord Howard on my introduction to this House back in 2011. He said, “Tariq, I have not been in this House that long myself, but one piece of advice I can offer you is, before you say anything about a subject, bear in mind that someone around you has probably written a book about it”. That applies to the debates we have on the European Union. I am delighted to thank all members of the sub-committee for the report and their contributions today and to respond on behalf of the Government. The phrase “flesh on the bones” has been used a number of times and I hope I can provide some build-up beyond the structure we have talked about thus far.

In response to this wide-ranging debate, I will set out where the sanctions fit within our vision of a post-Brexit foreign policy and explain how we see our future sanctions policy operating. I was delighted to learn that the noble Lord, Lord Collins, has been paying such attention to my right honourable friend the Prime Minister’s speeches. I will pass that comment on to her at the earliest opportunity. It is very welcome; I know him well. He also mentioned the sanctions Bill and said that on a number of occasions I had said that of course it was subject to negotiations. He will also remember that through the passage of the Bill in this House I consistently said that the Government were listening. I hope that reflects the sentiments of the other place as well. Indeed, my colleague Sir Alan Duncan has been quoted on a number of occasions.

I assure noble Lords that as we leave the European Union we intend to pursue an independent and ambitious global foreign policy—one focused on security, prosperity and influence for the whole United Kingdom, by actively promoting and defending our interests and values. My noble friends Lady Verma and Lord Risby both talked about the values. I assure all noble Lords that we take our international responsibilities seriously and will remain an authoritative and influential player on global issues. The noble Lord, Lord Horam, among others, listed some of the areas in which the United Kingdom continues to be an important influence. Indeed, yesterday we were pleased to host at the Foreign Office and the IMO the hierarchy of the United Nations, which reflects the positive nature of the engagement we have with that organisation. Indeed, Secretary-General Guterres was complimentary and positive about the UK’s continued contributions on the world stage. When you include NATO, the G7, the G20, the OSCE and the Commonwealth—I cannot miss an opportunity to mention the Commonwealth—you see the global influence of the UK.

A point that is often raised about British foreign policy is our assets—our places on the ground, our diplomatic posts. I am sure your Lordships followed the announcements that my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary made during CHOGM. One alluded to the opening of nine new diplomatic posts across the Commonwealth family. The noble Lord, Lord Jay, talked about how we may be the fifth or sixth-largest economy. Sometimes in our friendly rivalry with our French friends we ask who has the most posts; I believe that on the last count we are now one ahead but I am sure that our French friends are watching that closely. But as noble Lords have acknowledged, we are a major country economically, diplomatically and on issues of defence.

Several noble Lords referred to the City of London as a part of our soft power. I believe that my noble friend Lord Horam referred to the importance of the City of London as a financial centre. As someone who spent 20 years in it before joining the Government, I assure your Lordships that it is important that we keep the global nature of the City of London open.

On the issues concerning the Foreign Office itself, the 2015 spending review protected the FCO’s budget for this year and, as I said, we continue to open new posts. Let me also assure noble Lords that we are working to develop and strengthen our bilateral relationships with our key partners, both in Europe and globally, to maintain and expand our international influence. The noble Lord, Lord Jay, talked about the importance of France and I am sure that he observed with real positivity the exchanges that we had during the Anglo-French summit. Of course, that summit covered a range of issues: not just security and defence but important issues such as technology, the challenges across cybersecurity and development. That shows the importance of our European Union partners, but not just in the context of the European Union. Poland is another country with which we have recently had a very positive, high-level exchange. This demonstrates the importance of the bilateral relationships between the United Kingdom and those respective countries.

As the Prime Minister set out in her Munich speech in February, the United Kingdom continues to seek a deep and special partnership with the EU, so that we can continue to co-operate on security and foreign policy and go further to meet new threats. We saw that solidarity in the strength of the response after the nerve agent attack in Salisbury, and saw how important this co-operation continues to be. Yes, this co-operation must extend within the context of the European Union but also go beyond it, as it does now, because we know that the wider the range of countries implementing a sanctions regime, the more effective that regime will be. This was a point made by many noble Lords during the debate. I assure your Lordships that we will work hard to get the broadest possible agreement for any measures we propose, starting with our position as a permanent member of the UN Security Council.

After we leave the European Union, I can assure the House that our approach will be one of co-operation. Sanctions will continue to be, by their nature, a multilateral tool and we will continue to seek to impose them in co-ordination with others. If I may turn to working directly with the European Union and a point raised by my noble friend Lady Verma in her introductory remarks, until we leave the EU we remain committed to our rights and responsibilities as an EU member state. This includes continuing our proactive approach on sanctions, in pursuit of our security and foreign policy objectives.

I can also assure noble Lords that, after we leave, we will continue to work with our EU partners to maintain our collective peace and security. As noble Lords have all acknowledged, sanctions will be a powerful tool in that effort. As my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary told the House of Commons at the Second Reading of the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill, he hopes that we will “act in tandem” with the EU on sanctions, where possible, because we,

“will always confront the same threats and defend the same values”.—[Official Report, Commons, 20/2/18; col. 78.]

If I may turn to the specific questions, first, my noble friend Lady Verma and the noble Lord, Lord Jay, raised the option of aligning with sanctions regimes agreed by the EU 27. This would be along the lines of, or in a similar fashion to, the likes of Norway or Switzerland, which implement UN sanctions and have the powers to implement autonomous national sanctions. We understand that Norway and Switzerland rarely, if ever, implement unilateral sanctions and instead choose to align with EU sanctions, with limited input on decisions. As such, we are not seeking this option as part of our future relationship with the EU. We have been clear that when we leave the European Union, we will seek to impose our own autonomous sanctions.

As the Foreign Secretary told the House of Commons at Second Reading of the Bill, we will be able to concert our measures with the EU if there is a shared position, but by leaving the European Union we will be able to act independently or alongside other allies if there is no agreement within the European Union. The sanctions Bill will give us the powers to do so. This differing framework means that in the long term, any co-ordination with the EU on sanctions would be political, rather than the legal alignment we have now.

Given our independent foreign policy and our sanctions expertise, it would be inappropriate in the long run for us to adopt EU sanctions automatically, without any input into decisions or the flexibility to choose our own approach. I assure noble Lords that as part of our future relationship we are seeking an arrangement that appropriately reflects this.

Turning to some of the specific questions, my noble friend asked about aspirations for sanctions co-operation after Brexit and the model of sanctions co-operation based on two-way exchange, and my noble friend Lord Risby and the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, referred to the proposal for a UK-EU political forum. My noble friend Lady Verma asked for a detailed explanation of the Government’s aspirations for sanctions after Brexit. I assure my noble friend that, as we have said before, including in our reply to the committee’s report, we envisage a model of UK-EU sanctions co-operation based on two-way exchanges of analysis and information. This is still our vision. When we look at some of our international security co-operations, the Five Eyes co-operation comes to mind immediately. It demonstrates how like-minded countries acting on common values can come together to act in the common shared security interest.

Given our shared interests and values, the importance of multilateralism in this area, and the UK’s expertise, it is in both the UK’s and the EU’s interests to be able to discuss sanctions in the future. Any mechanism to do so should respect both the EU’s decision-making autonomy and the UK’s sovereignty, and, through the exchange of analysis and information, will allow us to combine our efforts on sanctions to the greatest effect.

The committee recommended that the Government should propose a regular political forum with the EU to discuss and co-ordinate sanctions policy. My noble friends Lady Verma and Lord Horam asked me to comment on this specifically. A forum such as this is one way in which this close co-operation could be put into practice, but there is a range of forms this could take. I assure noble Lords, and my noble friends in particular, that we have now moved into the next phase of negotiations with the EU where we are discussing our future relationship on a wide range of issues, including foreign policy and sanctions. I am sure noble Lords will respect the fact that it would be inappropriate for me to go into too much detail at this point, as these are discussions that will be had with our European partners, but we are starting from a position where both sides have agreed close engagement through both formal and informal mechanisms.

My noble friend also asked about our intent. The European Council’s guidelines for our future relationship give us good reason to believe that the EU is also committed to progress on an arrangement of this kind. The guidelines state that there should be “strong EU-UK co-operation” in our security, defence and foreign policy and they foresee,

“appropriate dialogue, consultation, exchange of information, and cooperation mechanisms”.

This mutual agreement on the benefits of close co-operation is welcome and, during the upcoming negotiations, we will be working towards achieving this in practice.

Several noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Taverne and Lord Anderson, spoke about loss of influence and expressed concern that our influence on sanctions will be diminished as we leave the EU. I disagree with this assessment. I have already alluded to the strength of the UK’s position in different fora and our representation in different international bodies but when it comes to sanctions, it is clearly in the interests of our international partners to continue to co-operate across jurisdictions, for the EU to co-operate with us and for us to co-operate with the EU.

With regard to the EU specifically, we know from its negotiating guidelines that I have just alluded to that it wants to maintain close links with us on foreign and security policy, of which sanctions remain an integral part.

[Lord Hunt of Chesterton (Lab)]

The Minister has talked a couple of times about maintaining a lead. The fact is that in leaving the EU we are seriously losing our position in some of these important high-technology defence matters; the Times yesterday was referring to the Galileo programme. These are very serious changes that are taking place. Is he really saying that we are going to be stronger as a result of our likely measures?