Intelligence and Security Committee Report

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Davies of Stamford

Tuesday 5th November 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, the noble Baroness uses the word “refuses”, but there is no refusal to publish; we are merely following due process. On her latter point, I reassure her that, as noble Lords who have served in various offices of state, particularly at the Foreign Office or the Home Office, as security Ministers or Ministers dealing with counterterrorism will know, this is not a case of waiting for the publication of a particular report. If there is a threat to the United Kingdom, we will deal with it there and then with the robustness that it deserves, with the Government working hand in glove with the security agencies.

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

Clearly, one of Mr Putin’s main priorities is to weaken NATO on any occasion that he can. He is clearly working very hard on Turkey at present, and some people are saying that he may well have some success in that direction. What is the Government’s strategy for dealing with this threat?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

As the noble Lord rightly points out, Turkey is a member of NATO. We continue to use NATO channels and, importantly, we have been talking directly to Turkey. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister has spoken to President Erdoğan a number of times over the past few weeks, and my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has spoken to the Foreign Minister of Turkey on matters of bilateral importance and on the situation in Syria. We take Turkey’s membership of NATO very seriously. NATO has kept the peace across Europe since the Second World War. As the noble Lord points out, it is important that NATO’s commitment continues, and Turkey is an important part of that alliance.

The Situation in the Gulf

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Davies of Stamford

Monday 22nd July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I am sorry, but I disagree with the noble Lord. The fact is that the Government did act. As I have already said quite succinctly, the fact that we did engage early on, in terms of assets in the region, prevented the impeding of the passage of a British-flagged commercial vessel, “British Heritage”, on 10 July. If the noble Lord feels that keeping diplomatic channels open is not a valid way of ensuring that we bring tensions down, then I again disagree with him. We have had a dual-track approach on this, ensuring that we can bring tensions down. The deployment of a large number of military assets into the Gulf, particularly around the Strait of Hormuz, which is a very small shipping channel, without fully exhausting diplomatic channels, would have been the wrong way to go about this.

Despite the political backdrop of Brexit, the Government continue to operate. The noble Lord shakes his head: perhaps he is casting doubt on my own efforts. I assure him that as a Minister of State at the Foreign Office, I and many other Ministers from the Ministry of Defence and other colleagues continue to ensure that we represent British interests to the best of our abilities. We will continue to work with Iran to ensure that tensions are decreased, to engage through diplomatic channels and to exercise our right to ensure that any vessel, British flag carrier or otherwise, is provided the protection it needs to ensure it can navigate the Strait of Hormuz. To say that we took our eye off the ball is inaccurate and I do not agree with the noble Lord.

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord has just listed a series of diplomatic initiatives taken with Iran over the last few days and the last few years and said that Iran had behaved in an unacceptable fashion. Is it not the case that not a single one of those initiatives had any success whatever? It has been a complete and utter blank. To say, “Well, we needed to exhaust diplomatic initiatives before we did anything else”, is simply absurd in the light of the record we are facing today.

The Minister has also made the most momentous revelation today in the House, which is that we have only one frigate in the Gulf and will be able to maintain only one frigate in the Gulf, because when “Montrose” is relieved she will not be replaced. That is an absolutely devastating indictment of this Government’s record in defending our shipping interests around the world. When I was in the MoD we had 17 escorts: I think we now have 13 and the number is going down. It is a quite disgraceful record. My noble friend Lord West is absolutely right about this and it is about time that the Government did something about it.

This is a very troubling, alarming situation. We find ourselves, quite extraordinarily, in a military confrontation with Iran into which we have walked without any idea at all what we were doing. There was no planning at all, no one seems to have given any thought to what the consequences might be of an aggressive enforcement of Syrian sanctions on Syria’s trading partners—not least Iran—and we find ourselves in a shambles. The Government are good at running a shambles, we know that, and this is a particularly dangerous one. In my view, the only thing we can do in these difficult circumstances is to concentrate our naval resources, as far as we can, through the use of the convoy system, but we must urgently build, and not just build, but buy, more escorts for the Royal Navy, with a full range of capability—anti-submarine, surface-to-air and surface-to-surface, because the Minister has revealed today that gunboats were responsible for this latest incident. The surface-to-air must include a ballistic capability, because the Iranians have ballistics. It is a very worrying situation, and we need to respond with great urgency to deal with it.

UK’s Ambassador to the USA

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Davies of Stamford

Monday 8th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I assure the noble Lord that the question of who is appointed as a diplomat to any country is a matter for Her Majesty’s Government and no one else.

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

My Lords, I think that everybody will be very pleased to hear the robust statement of confidence in our ambassador in Washington that the noble Lord has just delivered. Does he agree that there would be no point at all in having ambassadors or a Diplomatic Service abroad if they were not allowed to communicate back to the Government frankly and fully the reality of countries as they see it? Will he perhaps go a little further and give an assurance to everybody in the Diplomatic Service that no one’s career will be damaged by virtue of a leak that is no doubt made with personal or political motives, such as occurred in the last few days in relation to our embassy in Washington?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I can certainly give the noble Lord an assurance on his first question. As to his second question regarding motives, I have said that we should await the full inquiry, where I am sure that that will be addressed in full.

Iran Nuclear Deal

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Davies of Stamford

Wednesday 9th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I agree with my noble friend’s suggestion. It remains our position and that of our European partners, the French and the Germans, whatever proposals the United States wishes to put forward. Of course we will continue to work with the United States but, equally, it remains important that the nuclear deal stays on the table and that Iran is part and parcel of that.

On the issue of the United States and sanctions, my noble friend again makes an important point. The US has now confirmed that there will be a wind-down period before the sanctions take effect of either 90 or 180 days depending on the specific sanctions. The detail of how this will be impacted is still to be seen. My noble friend’s point on China is also well made.

The nuclear deal took a long time. It went through different iterations. It took both the Democrats and the Republicans in the United States and, as was acknowledged, the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, and others—I put on record my thanks to them—played a sterling role in bringing it to the table. It was a difficult deal to get done. Was it perfect? No, but it worked. It was having results. That is why we and our European partners remain committed to making it work by ensuring that Iran continues to remain part of the deal. The consequences of pulling away from the deal are all there and clear to be seen.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

My Lords, there are a number of deeply disturbing and worrying aspects to this matter. The most powerful country in the world has broken an international agreement, and that is deeply destabilising for everyone. The cause of moderation in Iran and the position of Rouhani personally may have been undermined, which would not be in the interests of stability either. Particularly seriously, there is now a major rift between the United States and its European allies. The Government have taken exactly the right line on this, though the decision to send Boris Johnson to Washington, a man who is generally regarded as a slightly ludicrous figure—his previous intervention in Iran was certainly disastrous—was a tactical mistake. Can the Minister tell the House how it is going to be possible to prevent British or other European companies from being, in practice, so intimidated by the threat of fines from the United States Treasury as to de facto observing the US embargo whatever the British Government’s wishes on the matter might be?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary expended a great deal of energy focusing on whatever negotiations could take place and conducting last-minute meetings with various members of the Administration over this past weekend. I pay tribute to his efforts to seek an agreement and that should be recognised by your Lordships’ House.

On sanctions, as I said earlier, we have looked at the announcement from the United States and are evaluating its implications. The noble Lord raises a valid point about the threat of sanctions and the fear of what that may mean for companies operating in Iran. That is why the initial advice we have given is for companies to take legal advice on their individual cases as to the nature of what this would mean. Whether it will have an impact on their business boils down to a commercial decision they will need to take, having evaluated the risks in front of them. We will continue to look closely at the situation and if further advice is needed it will be provided on the Foreign Office website at the appropriate time.

International Development Committee: Burma Visas

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Davies of Stamford

Wednesday 28th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I totally agree with the noble Baroness on the first point: you cannot have a bilateral agreement which does not guarantee the safe and secure return of the Rohingya community and enshrine their rights within the Burmese constitution.

On her point about China, China needs to look long and hard at the humanitarian crisis prevailing in Burma. Anyone who visits Cox’s Bazar will see that humanitarian tragedy unfolding. We continue to work both bilaterally with China and through the UN Security Council to gather its support so that we see action, particularly from the military authorities in Burma.

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

My Lords, following on from the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Collins, clearly we need to do something. The Minister has said that the Government have protested and are going to raise this matter in international fora but, as we all know, protests do not have much leverage on events. Some concrete incentives and deterrents—or punishments, if you like—are required.

I agree with the Government’s intention not to reduce their aid programme in Burma—we should not make the poor and starving people of Burma suffer for this—but an appropriate response might be a travel ban on Myanmar government and military officials.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I agree with the noble Lord that we need specifics. I can assure him that those are the blunt messages we are delivering. The most recent thing we are pushing, and we hope will be achieved, is the renewal of the EU arms embargo in March 2018. When my right honourable friend Mark Field attended the EU Council he secured a strong conclusion on Burma, including targeted measures on specific military figures within the Burmese military Government.

Cyclists

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Davies of Stamford

Monday 23rd November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My noble friend raises the issue of identification and is right to do so. As I said, we need to encourage education for cyclists and responsibility in cyclists. When they ride on pavements or jump red lights, they break the law, and there is a need to review with the police how we can apply the law effectively to cyclists as well as to any other road users.

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

My Lords, we have had a continuing string of tragedies involving cyclists being crushed by lorries, often while turning at traffic light intersections. What progress is being made—I think the European Commission was considering a directive at one point—in making it a matter of law that all lorries should be fitted out in such a way that the driver has vision of the full length of his or her cab from the cab itself?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Again, we have seen investment being made in this. The noble Lord points to a particular type of mirror, which is being encouraged by the Government. Right here in London, we have seen separate areas created for cyclists to ensure their security and safety. As I said, any death on the roads, whoever it is—whether a cyclist, a pedestrian or any other road user—is one death too many. We should seek to ensure safety and security for everyone.

European Union Bill

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Davies of Stamford

Monday 9th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

I want first to address some of the general points that have been made in this debate and then focus on Amendment 42, with which I thoroughly agree. I very much support the arguments of the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, on that. Several general points have been made. Some of this debate has been a bit of a Second Reading debate, which is a very good thing. These issues are extremely important and I accept that many of these amendments cut across the thrust of the Bill itself. They force the Government to explain exactly what their purposes are. That is a most important aspect of this evening’s proceedings. We are making some progress. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, for recognising that we on this side of the House are very much in favour of enhanced parliamentary scrutiny of European Union decisions. If the argument was about that, there would not be an argument. We would be pretty much in agreement and would have put the Bill to bed long ago. The issue is entirely about referenda, and whether it is sensible, practical and ever seriously intended to have referenda. It is important that, as a result of the proceedings of this Committee, we elucidate that point.

The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, said that he thought it was a sick joke—strong words, but justified—to suppose that the Bill would in any way enhance our relationship with our partners in the EU or enhance the British public’s support for our membership of the EU. I do not cast aspersions on the sincerity of any Member of this House. I am sure the people who say that they believe that the Bill will somehow enhance the British public’s understanding of and support for the European Union have genuinely persuaded themselves that that is the case. However, it is quite difficult to follow that argument, which is so obviously contrary to the historical facts. We all know what those are: Mr Cameron offered this Bill to his Eurosceptics as a sop. It was put to them as being a victory for the Conservative Party in the negotiations that led to the coalition agreement. Indeed, Mr Cameron and his Whips have been going around the Back Benches of the Tory party, as I know, saying, “You must be pleased with us now. We have at least brought forward this Bill, which stops any further growth in powers for the European Union and preserves parliamentary sovereignty”. That is an aspect we will come to later in the Bill. That is historical fact. That is how it has been presented and the way it happened. There is no question at all of anybody saying, “Let’s see what we can do to enhance the British public’s understanding of and support for membership of the Union”, and then coming up with this Bill. That is not how it occurred.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My noble friend Lord Hamilton referred earlier to the importance of connecting again with the British people. Is the noble Lord, Lord Davies, suggesting that military independence, the loss of our decision-making around defence and judicial independence are less important than financial independence?

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

I have not raised the issue of defence at all in my remarks, so I do not know where that question comes from. From the Whips, I am told. I do not dispute that interpretation.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My right honourable friend the Prime Minister put forward the Bill, which is all about connecting with the British people, not with the Whips. The important thing is what the British people care about. They care about our defence, our military independence and our financial independence. That is what this Bill is all about.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

The British people clearly care very much about the defence of the country; that is another, wider subject. I have no doubt at all that they are very unhappy with what the Government are doing in that regard. As the noble Lord may know, I have always supported a greater degree of cohesion in European defence matters. However, the amendments that we are discussing are not concerned with that issue. I want to get back to the Bill and the amendments that we are discussing.

Amendment 42, which deals with the European public prosecutor’s office, exposes the Bill’s lack of sincerity. Of course it is possible to make an argument for having a referendum about our joining the euro, or possibly about our joining Schengen, but is it really credible in this regard? Does anybody really think for a second that any Government would seriously have a referendum about the public prosecutor’s office? I do not think that anybody could possibly believe that is a realistic possibility.

Article 86 provides for a public prosecutor’s office. It says:

“In order to combat crimes affecting the financial interests of the Union, the Council, by means of regulations adopted in accordance with a special legislative procedure, may establish a European Public Prosecutor's Office from Eurojust”.

The words which state,

“In order to combat crimes affecting the financial interests of the Union”,

provide the answer to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, about having national jurisdiction. This country clearly does not have jurisdiction in financial crimes committed in Brussels or elsewhere in the Union against the financial interests of the Union. We are a member of the Union and suffer as a result of those crimes, but our courts may very well not have jurisdiction in such circumstances. Indeed, they are most unlikely to have it.

Who is going to oppose that? If you are going to have a referendum, have one on something that is controversial. If you go to the British public and ask, “Are you in favour of crimes against the European Union? Are you in favour of prosecuting them? Are you in favour of having a public prosecutor who would have jurisdiction in such cases?”, who is going to say no, they are not? It does not really make sense. Article 86(2) continues:

“The European Public Prosecutor's Office shall be responsible for investigating, prosecuting and bringing to judgment, where appropriate in liaison with Europol, the perpetrators of, and accomplices in, offences against the Union's financial interests, as determined by the regulation provided for in paragraph 1. It shall exercise the functions of prosecutor in the competent courts of the Member States in relation to such offences”.

What is controversial about that? Where is the substance there for a genuine referendum campaign? Can anybody consider suggesting to the British public that we spend £1 million of their money on having a referendum on such a subject, let alone tens of millions of pounds? The noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, pointed out that almost certainly a referendum on that subject could not be linked to some local or national election, and so the costs would be disproportionately high. It just does not ring true. I said that on Second Reading and I say it again now. The Government will have to do very much better to try to persuade the British public of their sincerity in that matter than they are doing.

The noble Lord, Lord Lamont, says that the treaty may extend the remit of the European public prosecutor’s office to enable it to deal with cross-border crimes within the European Union. That is perfectly true. He quoted paragraph 4, but it is clear that that decision would have to be taken by unanimity, so we have an effective complete lock on that for the rest of time. There is no threat of that happening without our having to take a decision on it if we wanted to. Of course we should take a decision only with parliamentary support. In fact, we should take a decision to join the European prosecutor’s office in the first place only with parliamentary support—whether through a resolution or a Bill, I do not particularly care; I am all in favour of that.

If the British public do not think that we in Parliament are capable of taking a decision on a matter which is a no-brainer—is it not?—to pursue financial fraud more effectively, then what is the purpose of having a Parliament? It does not even begin to make any sense.

I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, for bringing forward this amendment, as it shows up the complete hollowness of the Bill. It is insincere and simply does not make any sense. It is not for real. It is like dealing with a dishonest salesman: you know perfectly well that what he is saying is not the truth; you try to get at the truth and his real intentions, but it is clear that the real intentions are not the ones being overtly expressed. That is my problem with the Bill. It is a very serious problem. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, and to his fellow signatories to the amendment for bringing it forward. I hope that we get an answer from the Government. What is the reason for this obsession with the public prosecutor’s office? A respectable answer may be this: “We are stopping everything. Of course, it would be absurd to have a referendum on the public prosecutor’s office but we want to stop everything. A cat should not be allowed to cross a street so far as competences in the European Union are concerned without having a referendum. We want to be absolutely certain that we are totally pedantic about that”. That may be a respectable answer. It is an intellectually coherent answer but it means that the Government have adopted a policy of complete, rigid, ideological dogmatism in this matter. That is a very revealing point. If that is the explanation, it is very important that the public should know about it.