South Africa: Money Laundering and Corruption

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Baroness Kramer

Thursday 17th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I assure the noble Lord that this is very much ongoing, not just on the particular individuals concerned, but more specifically across the piece, both with the US and our European partners. In that respect, he will be fully aware, and as I have said repeatedly from the Dispatch Box, that for sanctions to be effective co-operation is required to stop the scourge of illicit financing and money laundering more generally. On sanctions specifically, we hope to introduce secondary legislation in due course very shortly, as part of the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Act, specific provisions on the human rights element of the sanctions regime. I will update the House accordingly in that respect.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I think the whole House would agree that the best way to prevent corruption is transparency, particularly of the various organisations that can be enablers. On that point, could the Minister tell us what progress has been made on public registers of beneficial owners in the overseas territories and Crown dependencies—an area where the Government have resisted many of the pressures introduced by this House?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I disagree with the noble Baroness’s final point. The Government have accepted the amendment that was made, and we are working closely with the overseas territories. She will also be aware that we have a very effective exchange of notes scheme already operational with key overseas dependencies, which provide law enforcement agencies and tax authorities with direct access. On the specific issue of registers, I am sure that she has observed very closely recent statements that have been made publicly, such as those by the Turks and Caicos Islands and by the Cayman Islands only yesterday, that they will be in line with the whole issue of public registers, reflecting European Union priorities and consistent with European priorities as will be required. The noble Baroness will be further aware that we are working directly with the OTs. We have technical groups set up to ensure public registers will be operational by 2023.

Lord Mayor’s Show: Taiwan

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Baroness Kramer

Wednesday 1st May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

As I have already said, and I am sure times have not changed since the noble Lord was a Foreign Office Minister, we pride ourselves on diplomacy and charm in encouraging people towards what we believe are the right decisions. However, the governance of the Lord Mayor’s Show is independent. We have given clear and unequivocal advice, and it is appropriate that organisations take decisions according to how they perceive moving forward. Our position on the Lord Mayor’s Show and other bodies is clear: Taiwan is an important partner and we will continue to encourage its partnership when it comes to issues of culture, trade and education.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I had the privilege of leading a trade mission to Taiwan and it was evident that the route into the Chinese market for much of our financial services industry was with a Taiwanese partner or intermediary. Can the Minister make the City much more aware of the importance of that relationship and of the fact that, in anticipation of Brexit, taking this sort of supplicant position to a power such as China is not an appropriate way to build our future economy?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

As someone who spent 20 years in the City of London, I never felt that it took supplicant positions. The City made some clear decisions based on its interests and it continues to do so. The role of government is to provide sound advice. I believe that we did so on this occasion and we will continue to do so in the future.

Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Baroness Kramer

Wednesday 17th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

What I have been saying in the examples I have quoted is that the use of the regulations is not something new.

[Baroness Kramer]

Perhaps the Minister could confirm that at present, the primary legislation takes place in Europe through the various processes of the European Parliament and Council. It is from those that the current regulation flows. The issue here is that in the future, there will be no mechanism for primary legislation to sit behind the regulation; it will be the regulation disembodied.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Baroness has correctly pointed out that all this is to do with what we do after we leave the European Union, which I have sought to make clear to my noble and learned friend. We will set up the mechanism and put in place the provisions to allow the Government to address the issue of criminal offences. The Government’s proposal would be to continue on the same basis as we do now—through the use of regulatory powers. As I indicated earlier, this is not different. I have also stressed that this would be subject to the affirmative procedure, which would allow for debates in both Houses. We covered that area extensively both at Second Reading and in Committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken the time to contribute to this important debate. The amendment would require the Secretary of State to provide all reasonable assistance to the Governments of certain of the British Overseas Territories with significant financial centres to enable each of those named overseas territories to establish a public register of company beneficial ownership. It further provides that, if by 1 January 2020 such overseas territories have not established such a register, the UK Secretary of State should take all reasonable steps to ensure that the Privy Council legislates to require the overseas territory to do so.

I am again grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Stern. We have had a constructive discussion where we laid out the differences over our approach. I do not object to the fact that we are all seeking—that is clear from all contributions today—to ensure fairness and transparency but also to do the right thing to ensure progress in this regard. I appreciate that the deadline set in this revised amendment for preparation of an Order in Council has been put back by one year compared with the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness and others in Committee. I previously addressed many of these points in Committee. But I hope that the House will bear with me if I reiterate certain key points.

I first want to inform noble Lords of the commitments that the territories have made to advance transparency in the company and tax fields. We heard the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, talk about taking leadership, having that relationship and allowing the British Government to work with the overseas territories and that this amendment is the way to achieve that. But we are already doing it. The overseas territories are part of my responsibilities as a Minister. They are totally engaged on this agenda. With respect, the noble Baroness laid out a series of assertions on how money laundering and certain activities occur. Is it right that these six territories alone are singled out? Where is the evidence base? That is important, but so is the action that is being taken. We need to focus on that.

For example, the overseas territories with financial centres are leading the world. They are among the early adopters of the OECD common reporting standard. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Collins, that the overseas territories, working with the British Government, are taking the lead. There is an agreement under which they automatically exchange offshore financial account information with taxpayers’ jurisdictions of residence. They started exchanging information with third jurisdictions in September last year. I join many noble Lords in the Chamber in commending our previous Prime Minister, David Cameron, and the steps that he took. But the process that we are now following is exactly the same process that was agreed during the coalition years with the Liberal Democrats. Since September 2016—in other words, a year before the common reporting standard came into effect, so I say to the noble Lord, Lord Collins, that this is another example of taking the lead—HMRC has been receiving data on accounts held in the overseas territories by UK taxpayers and has used this to further its compliance work.

The issue of public registers is relevant here. None of this means that we do not want to see the overseas territories take further action to move forward on the transparency agenda. We should, however, acknowledge the significant steps that they have already taken in this area and build incrementally on that progress, in partnership and with support.

As noble Lords will acknowledge, the UK is at the forefront of promoting corporate transparency. The UK is the only G20 country to have fully established a public register of company beneficial ownership and we continue to push for this to become—in the words of the noble Lord—a global standard. As I noted in Committee, however, the international standards set by the Financial Action Task Force do not require this, reflecting a lack of international consensus in this area. I am grateful to noble Lords who contributed on this. These standards state:

“Countries should ensure that there is adequate, accurate and timely information on the beneficial ownership and control of legal persons that can be obtained or accessed in a timely fashion by competent authorities”—


for example, tax authorities and law enforcement authorities. The OTs are moving ahead on this agenda. Nevertheless, should public registers become the global standard, we would of course expect the overseas territories and Crown dependencies to meet this standard. The territories themselves have indicated their willingness to adopt a public register in that event.

I will highlight something important to this debate: namely, the progress that the overseas territories have already made on the beneficial ownership agenda in a relatively short time. Since we concluded our arrangements with them in the run-up to the Anti-Corruption Summit of 2016, the territories, which have their own legislative bodies and elected representatives, have passed new primary legislation and delivered technological improvements to comply with the terms of the arrangements known as the exchange of notes. I am grateful to my noble friends Lord Leigh and Lord Flight for highlighting the positive progress that the OTs have made in this respect. My noble friend Lord Naseby also pointed to the positive steps taken by Cayman.

Under these arrangements, each of the overseas territories with a significant financial centre committed to hold beneficial ownership information in a central register or a similarly effective system and to provide UK law enforcement authorities with automatic access to such information within 24 hours of a request being made—or within one hour in urgent cases. These arrangements, which have been put in place since 2016, are already bringing benefits to UK law enforcement. They mark a significant increase in the ability of UK law enforcement authorities to investigate bribery and corruption, money laundering and tax evasion. I am sorry that I do not share the opinion of the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, that somehow these law authorities are very limited in scope. They make an incredible contribution.

[Baroness Kramer]

Perhaps I might ask the Minister a question. Does he not agree that one reason we have public registers in the UK is that law enforcement authorities here said that they could not successfully track down those crimes if they were not backed by public register arrangements? If we in the UK cannot be effective as law enforcers without public registers, how will we be effective as enforcers across the sea without public registers?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I have already said—and I repeat to the noble Baroness—that the OTs are already moving in this direction. I will put it very simply and in context. We have agreed legislation in both Chambers. We have passed it. We have had anti-corruption summits. We have asked OTs to step up to the mark. They are stepping up to the mark. They are taking the action required. Half way through the process, before we have even tested the very objectives that the noble Baroness has just outlined, we say to them, “Sorry, we’re changing the rules”. That to me is unacceptable.

Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Baroness Kramer

Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 12th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, I will speak briefly. I am no expert on the relevant legislation that is being repealed under this clause, but I have spoken to those who are, and the response I have had is one of shock. Legislation that went through both Houses of Parliament, with great care, debate, consideration and amendment, is now being swept away, to be replaced by a regulatory power, which, again, is not bounded in any way. It could be identical or it could be completely different, but it is not discussed or laid out anywhere in this legislation.

In the past we have talked primarily of powers that have come through a democratic process in Brussels: through the European Parliament’s scrutiny, consultation and voting processes, and through votes of the Council. In this case, we are talking about sweeping away, to be replaced by regulation, significant legislation that came through this Parliament in a democratic process. I do not understand, nor have I heard any explanation, why the Government are choosing to take this route.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I draw noble Lords’ attention to the White Paper that preceded the Bill, in which we noted that the terrorist threat has evolved since the enactment in 2010 of the Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc Act—TAFA—which the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, just referred to. We need to ensure that UK counterterrorist sanctions powers remain a useful tool for law enforcement and intelligence agencies. We therefore propose to use the Bill to establish a common approach to designations under counter- terrorism and country sanctions regimes, including the asset-freezing powers set out in Clause 2.

Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Baroness Kramer

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 6th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for introducing their respective amendments. I recognise, as I did at Second Reading, that there has been a good deal of interest in the anti-money laundering provisions of the Bill. In that regard, noble Lords may have noticed—and I am delighted—that I have been joined by my noble friend Lord Bates beside me on the Government Front Bench. I shall defer to him for some of the groups that we will discuss today.

Importantly, I hope this emphasises three things to the Committee: first; the Government’s cross-Whitehall and collaborative approach to the Bill; secondly, the Government’s recognition, as I said, that this is an important Bill and our desire is to get it right; and thirdly, as I hope noble Lords acknowledge—I know I speak for myself and my noble friend—that the Government deeply value what this House brings to discussions and scrutiny and equally respect its role in this regard. That is also true of today’s Committee. We have therefore ensured that appropriate Ministers are present to listen to the points raised by noble Lords.

The description of a wolf in sheep’s clothing took me back to reading the story of the Big Bad Wolf to my three and five year-old children. I assure noble Lords that there are no surprises in the Bill. The intent is very clear. I shall also provide greater detail in laying out the context behind the Government’s response to the amendments before us because that is important to your Lordships’ Committee.

Amendments 68ZA, 68ZB and 68ZC propose that regulations made under Clause 41 may be made only for the purposes of improving the detection, investigation or prevention of money laundering or terrorist financing, or for improving the implementation of international standards published by the Financial Action Task Force. I agree with the intention behind these amendments. This Government and our predecessor have, since 2015, led the way in combating money laundering and terrorist financing. Earlier this year, we brought the Money Laundering, Terrorist Financing and Transfer of Funds (Information on the Payer) Regulations 2017 into force, ensuring that our anti-money laundering and counterterrorist financing regime met the global standards set by the Financial Action Task Force. We are the only G20 country with a public register of company beneficial ownership and, through the Criminal Finances Act 2017, we are taking further action to permit banks to share information relevant to identifying financial crime.

The United Kingdom plays an active role in shaping the international standards set by the Financial Action Task Force, and has done so since it was first established in 1989. In view of the UK’s clear intentions and long record in leading the way in this area, and taking particular account of the commitment shown by this Government and our predecessor, I do not think these amendments are required to take us any further forward. I am sure that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Davidson, and the noble Lord, Lord Collins, would agree that, realistically, no Government would bring forward regulations under Clause 41 to weaken our abilities to detect, investigate or prevent money laundering or terrorist financing, or worsen our compliance with international standards. Therefore, I hope the noble and learned Lord may be minded to withdraw his amendment.

Turning to Clause 41 in more detail and Amendment 68A, I understand that Amendments 68A, 69A and 69E—tabled by the noble Baroness—seek to protect the current anti-money laundering regime. That is set out in the 2017 money laundering regulations—I set out the full title earlier and will not burden the Committee with it again—which implement the EU’s fourth money laundering directive. Although I sympathise with that intention, I hope I can reassure the Committee that the level of protection afforded by these amendments is excessive and may have unwelcome effects.

Current regulations on money laundering and terrorist financing follow the internationally agreed standards set by the FATF and impose granular obligations on regulated firms. The UK has chosen to follow the FATF standards as anti-money laundering regimes are more effective where they are aligned internationally. That is a general principle accepted by noble Lords. As a general point, the precise nature of the obligations contained in regulations, such as detail of how firms should approach conducting due diligence on their customers and the factors they should take into account in assessing risk, is better suited to secondary legislation than primary.

That follows the approach typically taken in the UK and elsewhere to establishing detailed obligations on regulated firms. For example, the UK transposition of the fourth EU money laundering directive was given effect through primary legislation, for matters of a general nature—including existing provisions of the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002, the Terrorism Act 2000 and the Anti-Terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001—with more detailed requirements on firms relating to, for example, their approach to due diligence and identifying beneficial owners being made in the 2017 money laundering regulations. A similar approach to transposition was taken by other EU member states.

To provide more detail on the UK legislation relating to the prevention of money laundering, the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 establishes the general obligations on the regulated sector to report details of transactions that give rise to suspicion of money laundering or terrorist financing. Part 7 of that legislation additionally establishes the substantive money laundering offences relating to the concealment, acquisition, use and possession of criminal property. The 2017 money laundering regulations establish further and more detailed obligations, such as how firms should conduct due diligence on customers, establish and maintain group-wide policies and procedures, and assess risk connected with different customers. Unlike the provisions contained in POCA, those obligations are better suited to secondary legislation, given the detailed requirements that they impose on firms and the need to keep the detail of such obligations updated, to address emerging risks.

An example of the need to address emerging risks can be found through the rapidly evolving policy framework at EU and international level. As noble Lords will be aware, the EU’s fourth money laundering directive was largely transposed into UK law in June via secondary legislation, through the money laundering regulations, as I have said. Yet noble Lords will also be aware that amendments to the fourth money laundering directive were being negotiated even before EU member states had transposed the original directive, demonstrating that anti-money laundering and counterterrorist financing standards can evolve at a rapid pace. The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, made the point about the justification that the Government are giving and continue to give in this regard: to quickly and effectively address emerging risks and ensure that the UK is a hostile environment for illicit finance, it is right that we use secondary legislation to implement future policy changes. That will ensure that the UK stays aligned with the evolving international standards in this area.

[Baroness Kramer]

I hope that the Minister can clarify something. He said that it is important to have access to regulation to reflect changing policy standards. Where are those standards? Are they in a piece of legislation? Are they up for debate in this House? Are they really what one Minister decides is policy? Perhaps he can explain that, because that is the missing piece—there is no structure for policy to go through a democratic process.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

As I have already indicated—and I will perhaps challenge the noble Baroness—when we take the legislation in a wider sense, whatever the legislation, there is primary and secondary legislation. As I have said before on secondary legislation, the procedure being put forward by the Government would allow that policy to be stated and debated in both Houses of Parliament.

I shall finish the point. In terms of existing money laundering, I have already alluded to the fact that with the previous directive the money laundering regulations laid out the detail to which the noble Baroness refers.

[Baroness Kramer]

I must press the Minister on this. He used the word “allow”. I am sure the Government can do what they wish in that sense and can bring forward primary legislation, which this is. Will the Minister confirm that it does not have to go through primary legislation? The—in effect—primary legislation that sits behind the 2017 regulations that he described took place within the extensive process of democratic debate, scrutiny and votes in the European Parliament. I am trying to understand where that piece goes in this legislation.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, once we leave the European Union—and I notice the change in tack from the noble Baroness who said “when” and not “if” any more—

[Baroness Kramer]

It was an error on my part. The more we go into this discussion, the more “if” sounds realistic.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Baroness knows how much I care for the accuracy of Hansard. She has clarified that.

In this case, the Government’s view is that there will be scrutiny of all future legislation once we have left the European Union. The Government will decide what element of policy that is subsequently translated into legislation will appear as primary legislation or as secondary legislation. However, for the purposes of this Bill, which I will come on to in a moment, there are certain elements that we are laying out in primary legislation and in secondary legislation. In both cases, after we leave the EU it will not be scrutiny in the European Parliament but scrutiny in this Parliament, and the Government will ensure it. I ask the noble Baroness to reflect on this point. When I come to the more substantive comment, if she will allow me, there are mechanisms within secondary legislation to allow for the effective debate to which I alluded at Second Reading.

To get back to the point that I was making—perhaps we differ on this and I acknowledge what the noble Baroness says—we believe that in order to address emerging risks quickly and effectively it is important to ensure that the UK is a hostile environment for illicit finance. This is consistent with the broader regulatory regime relating to financial services, for example, which also requires swifter tools that can be more readily updated to address emerging risks than primary legislation. A similar approach to implementing the standards set by the FATF is applied outside the UK in countries such as the United States. There, the Currency and Foreign Transactions Reporting Act 1970 imposes requirements relating to the reporting of suspicious transactions and so is broadly analogous to the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002. The detailed requirements of the international standards relating to areas such as due diligence and record keeping are then established through regulations promulgated by the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network, housed within the Department of the Treasury.

The Government are committed to parliamentary scrutiny of legislation made through delegated powers as we leave the European Union. This is the point I wish to make to the noble Baroness. I have made it before, but I hope it will reassure some, if not all, noble Lords that regulations made under Clause 41 will be subject to the draft affirmative procedure, unless they update the list of high-risk third countries, in which case they will be subject to the made-affirmative procedure. I made this point previously. I emphasise that updates to the list of high-risk countries will still require parliamentary approval, but they need to be put in place swiftly, as I am sure many noble Lords accept, so that banks and businesses can start to apply the enhanced due diligence measures which are appropriate for these high-risk areas.

The use of secondary legislation to amend anti-money laundering and counterterrorist financing regulations is consistent with our legislative approach in the past. The noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, raised the use of secondary legislation with certain Acts, but in general that is not new. I believe I have already made this point, but it was used, for example, to put the money laundering regulations 2017 in place following the fourth money laundering directive. It also provides consistency with our approach to regulations related to financial services and ensures that our anti-money laundering and counterterrorist financing regime remains consistent with internationally agreed standards. It also avoids the unusual position whereby secondary legislation made by a Minister cannot be changed without primary legislation made by Parliament. I hope that I have convinced the House that Amendment 68A is unnecessary and would place an excessive burden on legislation that needs to be flexible and capable of rapid change.

Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Baroness Kramer

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Wednesday 6th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, we are coming to the end—this is the last group. The noble Baroness has given a detailed exposition of the reasons behind the proposed amendments. I can say quite clearly that the Government do not agree with her position. She used phrases such as “the Government going it alone”. Throughout the Committee stage—and today with my noble friend—I have articulated the fact that with the FATF we have led the way. These are areas where Britain is ahead of the curve, not behind it. Perhaps I can answer some of her questions directly, and I will also look carefully at her contribution in Hansard.

Schedule 2 provides further detail on the scope of the anti-money laundering and counterterrorist financing regulations that can be made under Clause 41. Paragraphs 1 to 17 of this schedule confirm that regulations made under Clause 41 can cover the topics already addressed in the Money Laundering, Terrorist Financing and Transfer of Funds (Information on the Payer) Regulations 2017.

The noble Baroness quoted a few paragraphs. I will quote a few in return. For example, paragraph 4 confirms that regulations made under Clause 41, which she referred to, can require prescribed persons to take specified actions in relation to customers in prescribed circumstances.

The money laundering regulations 2017 currently give effect to the international standards set by the Financial Action Task Force and EU law, by including provisions of this type which require regulated firms to conduct varying levels of due diligence on their customers on a risk-sensitive basis. Further, and for example, paragraph 7, which I think the noble Baroness also mentioned, confirms that regulations under Clause 41 can confer supervisory functions—and corresponding powers—on supervisory authorities, such as the FCA. Other paragraphs within the schedule similarly clarify or supplement other aspects of regulations under Clause 41. For example, paragraph 18 provides that regulations made under Clause 41 cannot provide for criminal sentences that exceed the statutory maximums already established through the money laundering regulations 2017. Section 7 of the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 provides for longer prison sentences of up to 14 years; these provisions should be seen in that wider context.

Finally, the noble Baroness mentioned paragraph 20 on a few occasions. This paragraph confirms that regulations made under Clause 41 may make provision corresponding or similar to the money laundering regulations. Sub-paragraph (2) also confirms that regulations made under Clause 41 can be used to amend or revoke the money laundering regulations. Indeed, this is exactly what was done when the money laundering regulations came in to replace the 2007 regulations. This is not something new that has been created.

[Baroness Kramer]

When the money laundering directive came in, there was, through the cascade mechanism, a framework within which the regulations sat. Will the Minister at least acknowledge that that framework is the missing piece here? Does he acknowledge that the cascade structure, which was a backbone to make sure that the framework and the principles were translated down through the system, is also missing here? Amendment and revocation had to be within that context, with those constraints and principles. The new amendment that he quoted has no such constraint or principle sitting around it. That is the whole point that everyone is attempting to make in this discussion. He needs to tell us why the Government have chosen that route, where those frameworks, principles and backbones are eliminated.

Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Baroness Kramer

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 21st November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

Perhaps I may ask the Minister a question to address a lack of clarity. A moment ago, he basically said that one of the checks would be that either or both Houses of Parliament could vote against the SI brought forward by the affirmative procedure. The last time I was in this House and we on these Benches sought to do so with an SI, the consequence was a review on removing the powers of the House of Lords to act under such circumstances. Indeed, I have frequently heard language suggesting that to vote against an SI is a complete overreach of powers. Is this a change in the Government’s position? Is there any way in which this could be enshrined? It is rather fundamental to the discussions we will have not just today but on future occasions.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

As the noble Baroness will know, I have stated the position as it is. Of course it is within the powers of both Houses to vote against—that is the whole point of having statutory instruments that are presented to both Houses. This is not just about the House of Lords; I mentioned the House of Commons as well.

[Baroness Kramer]

Can I just confirm that the Government’s response to any such move would be exactly as we saw before? That is an important piece of information for this House to know. I believe that that is what the Minister has just confirmed.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I have stated that the position is as it is now. I know the noble Baroness is seeking to develop arguments that we have had on a previous occasion, but what I have stated is the position as it exists. The noble Baroness talked about it being enshrined in law. Currently, that is how affirmative instruments and statutory instruments work. I am sure she is fully cognisant of that fact.

The noble Lord, Lord Lennie, said that the amendment would not inhibit the Government in any way. But as I was saying—to give further explanation and clarity, if I may—changing “appropriate” to “necessary” would effectively force the Government to use sanctions only as a last resort. Let me assure noble Lords that by saying that I do not mean that sanctions are never our first option. It is important that the Government of the day have some flexibility in deciding when and how sanctions should be deployed. We would not want to find ourselves in a situation where we could not use sanctions in the early stages of a crisis and instead had to allow it to escalate until the necessity of sanctions could be demonstrated.

Moreover, sanctions work best when agreed multilaterally. To be required to demonstrate that other options have been exhausted and sanctions are therefore necessary would leave the UK more constrained than our allies and international partners in our ability to agree and deploy sanctions. It would be a high bar to meet, especially in cases where we may wish to impose sanctions as part of a multilateral agreement with allies in areas where there is no direct risk to UK citizens or direct impact on UK interests. Too high a bar could prevent the UK acting in these areas. This could not only reduce the ability of the UK to continue to play a central role in international affairs but reduce the effectiveness of the sanctions measures themselves. For example, financial sanctions against Russia—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I thank the noble Lord for his late but important contribution. As I said to the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, I was stating the position as is, regarding the context in which both Houses of Parliament can vote on statutory instruments. In the case of your Lordships’ House, it is clearly laid out in the Companion as well. Let us also put this into context: if a sanctions regime were being proposed and it were voted down in both Houses, the sanction itself would fall and would not apply. The context is not something that can be ignored. In the context of the second question, the noble Lord—

[Baroness Kramer]

May I ask for a clarification? The Minister just said the context could not be ignored. Is his conclusion that it is inappropriate for a statutory instrument related to sanctions ever to be voted down by either House? Is that the conclusion that we are to draw from his comment?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Perhaps I can read into what the noble Baroness seeks on this occasion. This is not an issue about both Houses or affirmative instruments. The position I have given is not the Government’s position; it is the position as it stands now. If she needs further elaboration, I respectfully refer her to the House of Lords Companion.

To return to the noble Lord’s final question, if I may, I will write on the specific issue that he raised for the purpose of clarity for all Members of your Lordships’ House.