Water Bill

Debate between Earl of Selborne and Baroness Byford

Tuesday 25th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Selborne]

My Lords, I am sure that we are all sympathetic to the proposal of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, to protect vulnerable consumers from the escalating costs of water. Clearly, it is difficult for some people to budget for something that accounts for 5% of their income.

However, before we look at setting up another national scheme, we need to understand why water can account for such a large proportion of people’s budgets. The first thing we have to do is recognise that as well as the “can’t pays” there are the “won’t pays”. The “won’t pays” are those who recognise that it is impossible for them to be deprived of water. People have a right to water whether or not they pay their bill. The expense incurred by water companies chasing those who will not pay but are perfectly capable of doing so in the small claims courts often leads to a long, inefficient drag on resources. It would be interesting to know the national figure for those who fail to pay when their income level is deemed perfectly reasonable. Perhaps the Minister has that figure available.

When the Science and Technology Select Committee looked at this issue some six years ago, it was not unusual to find that 10% of consumers from high-income streams did not pay their bills, which shocked me. We came up with a proposal which was accepted by all the members of the committee but not by the Government of the day, or subsequent Governments—namely, that we should follow the Australian practice of reducing to a trickle the water supply of those who could perfectly well pay their bills but did not do so and therefore unloaded costs on to those who were less able to pay their bills. The technology exists to do this but I am afraid that this practice is not considered acceptable. Rather rude remarks were made about their Lordships contributing to the great unwashed. I thought that that was a rather unfair observation. Nevertheless, we need to give the water companies every encouragement to chase those who will not pay. That would help those who cannot pay, who this amendment seeks to help.

[Baroness Byford (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend has beaten me to the point that I wish to raise. Over the years, during consideration of whichever water Bill, we have had this debate on how you cope with those who are well able to pay but who choose not to do so. My noble friend is quite right: for various reasons, water is never cut off while, unfortunately, electricity can be. It is an unusual situation in that the water industry is the only one in which that position still exists.

I have some questions for the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, on his amendments. First, how would he balance that situation with what he is proposing? Secondly, does he have his own definition of what minimum standards might be, because he has clearly said that it would be for the Government of the day or officials to come up with them? It would be a good idea if the Official Opposition had some direct input themselves into that. Thirdly, the noble Lord said, “We can refer the matter to secondary legislation”. I have sat here on many occasions when we have all said, “Secondary legislation is all right but we do not have any control of it”. We have control of the Bill at this stage and it is essential to deal with this matter in the Bill rather than leave it to secondary legislation, if that were possible.

This is an important issue. When we were considering the Water Bill many years ago, it was difficult to decide who would qualify for being a special case and the circumstances that would be taken into account. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, will put a little more meat on the bone, other than what he has done so far in these two amendments.

Water Bill

Debate between Earl of Selborne and Baroness Byford

Thursday 6th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Selborne]

My Lords, I have a lot of sympathy with the thrust behind the attempt of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, to deal with those who will not pay as opposed to those who cannot pay. Some six or seven years ago I had the privilege of chairing a report of the Science and Technology Select Committee on water management. We were appalled by the number of affluent people in South East Water’s area who had worked out that they could never be deprived of their water supply as it is illegal to turn off the water, so they simply did not pay for it.

The cost of taking someone to a small claims court is a difficulty. Where there is a change in population, such as happens in some areas more than others, the cost of trying to trace defaulters can be more than the cost of the debt. The two amendments proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, seek to deal with this. I suspect that it would be better to deal with this in secondary rather than primary legislation, as was originally intended. Nevertheless, I believe that my noble friend on the Front Bench should encourage the thrust of these amendments, to make sure that those who can afford their water perfectly well should be induced to pay for it, and that the water companies should be assisted in this, particularly by those with information on who is responsible for paying the bill. Landlords are often in a position to provide that information. All assistance should be given in this case. It is galling to know that people who cannot manage their affairs but are living an affluent lifestyle are advised by debt managers, “Well, don’t bother about the water bill”.

[Baroness Byford (Con)]

My Lords, over the years that we have been debating water bills, this has been a constant theme. I think that all of us in the Chamber, on whichever side we may have been sitting at a particular time, have agreed that it is a problem that needs to be resolved. What I am not quite clear about is whether Ofwat with its new responsibilities has the power to tackle what is being proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and whether that would then make his amendment unnecessary. However, I am still sympathetic to what the noble Lord said about those who can pay and will not pay. I rather gained the impression from Ofwat when it gave a presentation recently that it had the power to make adjustments to individual water companies. I might be wrong, but I would be glad of some clarification.