Water Bill

Earl of Selborne Excerpts

Thursday 6th February 2014 Lords Chamber

I do not expect the Minister to answer today my latter reflections, which are based on what I anticipate his response will be. Of course, I may be wrong and he may be fully in favour of my amendments, which, he will have noticed, reflect the experience in Scotland. On that point, we should sincerely welcome the outstanding contribution made by WICS, not only in opening up competition but in providing a clear set of criteria for us to discuss, consider and use as first-rate experience from which we can amend the Bill. In the light of those comments, I look forward to hearing the responses from other noble friends and the Minister. I beg to move.

[The Earl of Selborne (Con)]

My Lords, I support my noble friend Lord Moynihan. Although he described these proposals as modest, they are important in complementing the provisions in the Bill facilitating competition. After all, the Bill introduces a completely new concept of competition at both the wholesale and retail levels. We are right to be extremely suspicious of the attitude that companies will take to try to use their undoubted advantages as incumbents in order to secure their markets, which, at the moment, are unchallenged.

If noble Lords think that I am a bit paranoid about this, let me take an example from outside the water sector, in the field of communications. This morning, on a previous group of amendments, we prayed in aid Ofgem; I should also like to pray in aid Ofcom. Take the example of BT and broadband, which is an area that involves public funds but may perhaps not be an exact analogy with the water sector. BT is able to use public funds in order, as the Public Accounts Committee in another place has demonstrated, to see off new entrants. In a number of cases, a lot of work has been done to bring broadband to remote communities, but there has been a lack of transparency from incumbents until the last possible moment. They come into those areas—surprise, surprise—with a directly competitive service, having identified where the competition is going to come from. Of course, all other areas remain neglected until they attract competition, too. In other words, it is possible, in any number of insidious ways, for an incumbent to retain a competitive advantage. The company can sometimes just be bad at providing the data and not answering communications.

These amendments place a duty on an undertaker to facilitate competition and they strengthen Ofwat’s powers. In ways which we cannot entirely predict, but which we can assume will be used, companies will be rightly keen to retain their share of the market. We should assume that anything done to strengthen the ability of new entrants to operate without discrimination against them must be welcome. Without in any way casting aspersions on the existing undertakers, we should recognise that anything that can be done to demonstrate that they are required to facilitate competition would be well within the spirit of the Bill and complement the existing provisions. I cannot see how these proposals could do anything but help.

[Lord Crickhowell (Con)]

I rise to make a very brief comment, prompted by the remarks of my noble friend on the likely possibility of incumbents seeking to defend their positions. I seem to recall that, in reply to my noble friend Lord Moynihan in our previous debate, the Minister told us that the water companies had said that they were against what was proposed. I remember thinking, like Mandy Rice-Davies, “Well, they would, wouldn’t they?”. It was just an indication of the kind of attitude that one is likely to get from incumbents—perfectly naturally—in trying to defend their existing position.

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[Baroness Parminter]

I rise to support the intention of Amendment 120, if not the intention of Amendment 122, which is grouped with it. The issue of bad debt and the implications of what that means for the affordability of all our bills is an important one.

At Second Reading I asked the Minister why the Government, unlike the Welsh Government, are not implementing the bad debt provisions in the Flood and Water Management Act 2010, alluded to by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. If they were to do so, it would help company debt recovery and bring down household bills. The response I received was that the Government were wedded to the idea of a voluntary scheme, with a database that the water companies were helping to fund, which would be brought in, probably via regulations, in the next month or so. I may be wrong, but I suspect that, with only an intervening 10 days between Second Reading and now, that is the answer that we will get again and that the Government will not wish to support these amendments.

Therefore I ask the Government, if they are determined to stick with the voluntary approach, whether they will set a reasonable review period to evaluate whether or not the voluntary scheme for landlords is effective. All the evidence to date, from the voluntary schemes of companies such as Northumbrian Water and others, shows that they do not work. It seems to be a reasonable request, if the Government are not prepared to move ahead with a mandatory scheme, for them to give an indication to the House of a reasonable review period, so that if the scheme is found to be ineffective—as most of your Lordships believe it will be—the regulations can be changed to make it compulsory.

[The Earl of Selborne]

My Lords, I have a lot of sympathy with the thrust behind the attempt of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, to deal with those who will not pay as opposed to those who cannot pay. Some six or seven years ago I had the privilege of chairing a report of the Science and Technology Select Committee on water management. We were appalled by the number of affluent people in South East Water’s area who had worked out that they could never be deprived of their water supply as it is illegal to turn off the water, so they simply did not pay for it.

The cost of taking someone to a small claims court is a difficulty. Where there is a change in population, such as happens in some areas more than others, the cost of trying to trace defaulters can be more than the cost of the debt. The two amendments proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, seek to deal with this. I suspect that it would be better to deal with this in secondary rather than primary legislation, as was originally intended. Nevertheless, I believe that my noble friend on the Front Bench should encourage the thrust of these amendments, to make sure that those who can afford their water perfectly well should be induced to pay for it, and that the water companies should be assisted in this, particularly by those with information on who is responsible for paying the bill. Landlords are often in a position to provide that information. All assistance should be given in this case. It is galling to know that people who cannot manage their affairs but are living an affluent lifestyle are advised by debt managers, “Well, don’t bother about the water bill”.

[Baroness Byford (Con)]

My Lords, over the years that we have been debating water bills, this has been a constant theme. I think that all of us in the Chamber, on whichever side we may have been sitting at a particular time, have agreed that it is a problem that needs to be resolved. What I am not quite clear about is whether Ofwat with its new responsibilities has the power to tackle what is being proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and whether that would then make his amendment unnecessary. However, I am still sympathetic to what the noble Lord said about those who can pay and will not pay. I rather gained the impression from Ofwat when it gave a presentation recently that it had the power to make adjustments to individual water companies. I might be wrong, but I would be glad of some clarification.

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[The Earl of Selborne]

My Lords, I want to give the Minister a little encouragement. We all recognise that this is a hopelessly complicated Bill that has been many years in gestation. On a number of occasions, we have complimented Defra, rightly so, on its briefing notes—yet another has come out today. Start putting those on a website, and you will have a work of reference that will be of enormous assistance.

One of the things in previous decades that has led to confusion has been the fact that the three different regulatory authorities—the Environment Agency, Ofwat and the Drinking Water Inspectorate—have different agendas and, before these new duties of resilience came in for Ofwat, there was no reason why Ofwat and the Environment Agency should ever agree. As I said at Second Reading, I never really felt that I was going to feel sorry for the water companies, but on that aspect I did because they were being dragged in two different directions.

If you really want to manage water in an appropriate way, you should do it by catchments, but unfortunately you cannot organise Great Britain, or even England and Wales, by catchments. That is, alas, not the way that local government, or any government, works. In the Bill, we are trying to promote sustainable management of water. That means starting at the estuary and working uphill, and if that can be done by catchment, so much the better. You try and get all the different bodies together, preferably with voluntary agreement—I agree with my noble friend who moved this amendment that, if you can do that without regulation, so much the better—but of course there must of course be a regulatory framework, and no one is disputing that.

The reason that I have some small words of comfort for my noble friend on the Front Bench is that I think that the Bill, complicated though it is, goes a long way towards bringing the two main regulatory authorities—the Environment Agency and Ofwat—to a common agenda. If we asked in Scotland, where there is yet another regulatory authority, I think they would say that their relationships with Ofwat—on roughly the same agenda, but with a completely different competitive background for the past five years—can now only improve. That is important as some catchments straddle the Scottish and English border. If ever there was a case for ensuring that we work to a common agenda, it must be for those people in the catchment area of the River Tweed.