Crime and Courts Bill [HL]

Earl of Listowel Excerpts

Monday 28th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness and indeed the noble Lord, Lord Judd, on the theme of rehabilitation. I echo what the noble Lord said: effective rehabilitation is a costly business. You need to invest in the right people and professionals, and support them properly, if you are to get the outcome that you want. That investment is well worth making. The National Grid Transco young offender programme was able to reduce reoffending by young people leaving prison from 70% to, I think, below 4%. Those young men went into employment and earned money for their families. Many were having children and setting a good example to the next generation. That was extremely carefully done and required hard work from all around, including the chairman of National Grid Transco in his lobbying for other companies to be involved in this process of mentoring and then employing young men from custody.

I join the warm welcome for Part 2 of the Bill, the reform of family courts. I was pleased to hear my noble and learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss speak about her brother’s vision for this future that has now come to us. I certainly see hope there in many possible improvements to the service for children and families.

I will concentrate on one aspect of the Bill: the possibility of an amendment to this legislation that might offer to reduce the numbers of women in custody and children taken into local authority care, and save the courts and local authorities both money and time. I refer to an amendment to Part 2 of the Bill that changes Section 33 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933. This section deals with parental neglect and its punishment. I hope we might consider amending this section to extend the choice of disposal to include support. I hope we might also discuss ensuring that guidance is clear about offering support prior to court proceedings. In discussing this, I apologise to my noble and learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss for failing to consult her before Second Reading. No doubt the House will look to her for advice on this matter in Committee and I should certainly not wish to add to the legislative forest if legislation already meets my concern. However, I am struck by the anomaly of legislation that seeks only to punish neglect and not to provide for the alternative—support—where appropriate.

This House was concerned some time ago about the effect of introducing parenting orders. The noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, will remember the debate. The noble Lord, Lord Warner, the former chair of the Youth Justice Board, commented to me that in his experience parenting orders were the most effective tool at its disposal—the least costly and the one most welcomed by the recipients. Parents often commented, “Why weren’t we offered this help before?”. To give a few statistics, between 2001 and 2010, the number of cases under Section 33 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933 trebled from 782 to 2,172; 67% of these resulted in cautions.

I would be grateful if the Minister might write to me about the remaining 33%. How many cases went as far as custody? How many mothers were imprisoned as a consequence? What became of the children whose mothers were imprisoned? How many children were taken into the care of the state as a consequence of the imprisonment of their mother? I recognise that these are emotive questions. It may be that my concerns are groundless—that very few, if any, individuals are incarcerated and that those few may merit this treatment. I would certainly wish to be assured that this is indeed the case. Even if it is, however, there still may be merit in amending the legislation and guidance to ensure that more families receive the early support they need.

I hope the Minister and your Lordships might be prepared to listen to the concerns of the charity Action for Children about the 1933 legislation. The charity has a long-standing interest in this area. The University of Salford’s four-year Evaluation of the Action for Children UK Neglect project was launched last week. Research found that Action for Children’s intensive family support services intervened successfully in most cases of neglect, even when neglect was a most serious concern, to the level of child-protection intervention. Parenting programmes and outreach were highlighted as particularly effective interventions.

Action for Children works with around 50,000 children and young people across its 480 services. It has a great deal of experience of working effectively with troubled families. I hope that your Lordships will be available to attend a briefing from the charity in the course of the Bill, and the Minister may be prepared to listen carefully to their concerns. No doubt Action for Children will wish to consult my noble and learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss if it has not had the opportunity to do so already.

I shall make one or two other observations about the capacity of courts to make good judgments in family proceedings. The complexity of these cases can be quite daunting and it encourages me that the proposal may offer more opportunities for training in sentencing, child development and in similar areas involving children and families. The district judge Nicholas Crichton, of the Inner London Family Proceedings Court, has made a tremendous difference to families in this country with his innovation of the Family Drug and Alcohol Court. He also goes to eastern Europe and trains the judiciary there to deal with children and families. Where one has expertise in a judge, they can make a huge difference to our society and to that of others.

I am concerned about what is happening with expert witnesses. As your Lordships may be aware, there has been concern about the rates of remuneration for expert witnesses. In particular, independent social workers are now the lowest paid, at £30 an hour. That is lower than a process server in a court. Often in local authorities, front-line social workers are very overstretched, particularly at the current time. Sometimes they are young and inexperienced, and a court needs a good expert to make an assessment of what should happen in a particular child’s case.

I know a few independent social workers. The father of one was a social worker and so is his daughter, and my experience has been that these are the sort of experts one would want giving advice in court. The danger is that if one sets the rates of pay so low, the best of them may leave and it might become difficult to find good ones to advise the court. I hope that the Minister might keep that in mind in this particular area. There is a need for good advice to the courts to make the speedy decisions we all want to see for children and to avoid delay.

Perhaps I may also briefly mention looked-after children. I do this in part because the family courts often deal with children who have grown up with a mother or father who themselves grew up in care. If you look at the statistics, it is staggering how many young women in care will go on to have children who are themselves taken into care. If we can avoid that situation, it is very much to be condoned. I am afraid that recent reports about children’s homes in the press, in the Times in particular, highlight the fact that we still have a long way to go in providing a fit-for-purpose service to many of our looked-after children. The many children being taken into care is a good thing. They will have better outcomes as a result of the care of the state, but too many within that group—a small but significant minority—are not getting the care they need.

Only about 4,000 of our children are now cared for in children’s homes—about 7% of the children being looked after—but they have a high level of needs. Because it is such an unpopular option, they will be there probably after a number of breakdowns in foster placements; they will be very troubled children. Some of the staff who care for them are wonderful and dedicated, but they do not have the professional development to help them manage those children as well as they should. In research comparing this country with Denmark and Germany, in Denmark 90% of the staff had a BA (honours) qualification. In this country it was 30%. The regulations require staff qualifications in children’s homes to be NVQ level 3, about equivalent to an A-level, and managers to have an NVQ level 4. That is about the beginning of a degree course or a foundation-year degree. However, the children in our homes are much more troubled than those in Denmark or Germany, because half the children in care in those countries are kept in residential settings. It is a much more popular option, so there is a mix of children with different levels of need.

It troubles me very much that those in our children’s homes are not getting the expert professional support and care which they need. Some have been sexually exploited by predatory men. Others will go on to be parents, perhaps while they are still in care, and quickly have their children taken away from them and be processed through the family court system. There will be other opportunities to debate this, I know, but I suggest that the Government need to look very carefully at this area and think about investing in the training and development of children’s home staff.

Briefly, the Magistrates’ Association is interested in a duty to oblige co-operation between magistrates and probation. It is concerned that the essential liaison between the two has declined over time. If one looks at the success of the Youth Justice Board, one sees a good working relationship between magistrates and young offender teams. I have been concerned in the past about anti-social behaviour orders and what has reassured me is that magistrates have increasingly understood the right way to use these orders and have consulted youth offender teams.

It might be necessary to legislate for closer liaison between the probation service and magistrates. This would make a big difference to successful alternatives to custody and reduce the adult prison population, as the Youth Justice Board has so successfully reduced the population of children in custody in this country. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

Minority Ethnic and Religious Communities: Cultural and Economic Contribution

Earl of Listowel Excerpts

Thursday 24th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, I, too, am most grateful to my noble friend Lord Bilimoria for calling this timely debate on the 150th anniversary of the formation of the Zoroastrian Trust Funds of Europe. In a recession of this gravity, it is right to look at the inspirational leadership that ethnic and religious minority communities have shown, particularly in establishing vital public institutions. I listened particularly closely to the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, when she spoke of the ASHA Centre, established by a Zoroastrian Parsee. I also remembered that the noble Baroness, Lady Corston, in her report on women in custody, noted the important work that the ASHA Centre did in allowing mothers to keep in touch with their children, rather than being removed into the secure estate.

I wish that my father could be in his place today. As the last Secretary of State for India and Burma, as a Minister for the colonies at that time and as the last Governor-General of Ghana, I am sure that he would have taken particular pleasure and interest in our debate today.

I should declare my interest as a trustee of the Michael Sieff Foundation and as a patron of the Who Cares? Trust, YoungMinds, and Volunteer Reading Help. I am also an officer of the All-Party Parliamentary Group for Looked After Children, chaired by Edward Timpson MP.

I should like to speak of a minority and how its needs have too often been overlooked, with appalling consequences for that minority group, and how the foundation of a new institution might secure the group’s future. The minority I am speaking about are the 4,040 children in children’s homes in this country, 1,300 of whom are girls. The need that has too often been overlooked has been their need for the most expert and nurturing care. The appalling consequences have been the historical abuse of children by staff in children’s homes and the current apparent failure of some children’s homes to protect girls as young as 12 and 13 in their care from predatory men. The Times of Wednesday 9 May had local authorities recording 631 incidents of girls from children’s homes being sold for sex during the past five years, including 187 in the past 10 months.

The new institution that might secure their future is a centre for excellence for looked-after children. The Scots established such an institution several years ago. Set in the University of Strathclyde, the Centre for Excellence for Looked After Children, formerly the Scottish Institute for Residential Child Care, provides training and research, and influences policy. It is currently funded to the tune of £3 million per annum by the Scottish Government.

I suggest that those of us who are particularly concerned with the welfare of children might assist in establishing a similar institution in this country, following the example of the Zoroastrian Parsee and other minority communities in establishing such important institutions. Some £100,000 has already been offered towards securing such an endowment to a university. Will the Minister take back to her colleagues this suggestion of establishing such an institution in one of our universities, dedicated to residential childcare and to supporting foster care and funded jointly by endowment and government investment?

Important improvements have been made by successive Governments in building capacity in children’s homes and in strengthening regulation. In recent years, Ofsted has reported improving quality in the care provided. However, those of us who know the sector know that the fundamental problem has not been addressed. The most vulnerable and challenging children in this country are cared for by workers who too often lack appropriate professional development and are often poorly paid. Research by Professor Pat Petrie and Professor Claire Cameron at the Thomas Coram Research Unit found that staff on the continent are far more highly professionally equipped, yet they also deal with children with far lower levels of need.

I have spoken for too long, but I hope that the Minister will take back these concerns to Tim Loughton MP, the Minister responsible in this area, and I look forward to her response to the debate.

Queen’s Speech

Earl of Listowel Excerpts

Tuesday 15th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Listowel]

It is a privilege to follow the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, particularly after his comments about the reduction in the number of young people in the youth justice system and his call for a similar system for women—a women’s justice board—to focus on their needs. Not only have they had the experiences that he describes, but many of them have been in the care of the state, which has often not provided them with the care that they needed. I support the call of my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham for further work on the Corston recommendations. It is so disruptive to children’s lives when they are taken into the secure estate.

I rise to speak to a matter omitted from the Queen’s Speech. I want to share my concerns with Her Majesty's Government about the lack of professional capacity in our children’s homes. I take this opportunity to encourage the Secretary of State, the right honourable Michael Gove MP, to give thought to developing a strategy for the professionalisation of staff in children’s homes. Professionals who come into contact with children’s home staff are unanimous that the quality of staff is highly variable and that staff often show little understanding of children’s needs. That is the view of the social workers and child mental health professionals to whom I speak.

The front page of the Times on Wednesday last week read as follows:

“A nation’s shame: Nine men are found guilty of sex grooming crimes against vulnerable young girls after a trial that has exposed the shocking scandal in Britain’s children’s homes”.

Andrew Norfolk, the journalist, goes on to write:

“Hundreds of girls in children’s homes are being sexually abused by organised networks of men, The Times reveals today. England’s children’s homes, which care for 1,800 girls, have recorded 631 incidents of girls being sold for sex during the past five years, including 187 in the past ten months”.

I am most grateful to Mr Norfolk and the Times for the extensive and careful coverage that they have given to the horrific exploitation of these vulnerable children. On page six of that day’s Times, Jenny Pearce, Professor of Young People and Public Policy at the University of Bedfordshire, said:

“You’re talking about poorly trained, poorly supported staff working with some of our most vulnerable children and young people. That combination is an ideal setting for an abuser to exploit”.

It seems clear that the Times successfully identified a systemic problem with our children’s homes, which needs to be remedied as soon as possible. We need to move to a professional cadre for our children’s homes as soon as possible if we are to minimise future risk of harm, sexual and other, to these our most vulnerable children.

In his report of the 1990s on children living away from home, Sir William Utting wrote that the best safeguard for children is an environment of overall excellence. I am concerned that we may be failing in our duty to these children by forgetting his words.

Why do these children need such care? These are often children who have experienced multiple failures of foster placements. They have therefore generally experienced abuse in the family and then been further harmed by being passed from pillar to post. They are normally the older children with longer histories of neglect, who are physically more difficult to manage. The Office for National Statistics in its 2004 survey found that 69% of children in residential care had a mental disorder and that the majority of these disorders were conduct disorders, which are particularly hard to manage for carers. That compared with about 40% of disorders in foster care and 10% in the general children’s population. A head of a child mental health service department put it to me that the profile of these children in these children’s homes is very little different from that of children in psychiatric units. In the latter, children are cared for by nurses who are managed by doctors; in the former, they are cared for by staff qualified to national vocational qualification level 3, who are managed by those qualified to be level 4 managers. There is a world of difference in the capacity of those staff.

On the continent, residential care is a far more popular option, with about half the children in care in residential settings. Staff are also generally more highly qualified. In Denmark, 90% of staff have a degree-level qualification. The continentals choose to have the most highly skilled qualified staff caring for their vulnerable children. In this country we have made the opposite decision. Because our children’s homes cater for only about 8 per cent of the children in local authority care, the needs of our children in residential care are significantly higher than those of such children in France, Germany or Denmark, yet our care staff are much less well qualified. We choose to place our most vulnerable children with our least qualified workers.

[Lord Northbourne]

I am most grateful to the noble Earl for giving way. Does he agree that a considerable number of children’s homes do not fit the description he has given, and that their qualified staff look after the children extremely well?

[The Earl of Listowel]

I agree with my noble friend on that point. For instance, there are some exceptionally good therapeutic communities in this country and some very good examples of practice. The difficulty is that the quality is so variable. These vulnerable children deserve a consistently excellent quality of care from their carers.

Gangs of men meet former residents of children’s homes and use those girls or young women to “hook into” the young women in those homes. It is very hard for staff to resist that. We need to have the very best staff in children’s homes to prevent these cunning, wily gangs of men gaining access to these children; and not only gangs are involved.

There has been progress in skilling-up staff. Ofsted inspections report improved performance. There are some very good homes and therapeutic communities and many residential care staff work the hardest they can in the interests of these children. I agree with my noble friend in that regard. Regulations have been tightened and there is the prospect of further strengthening of regulations over the next year, yet I fear that a fundamental problem will not be addressed unless a clear strategy for professionalising staff in our children’s homes is introduced as soon as possible. Therefore, I beg the Government to give consideration to developing such a strategy to bring this about. There is great expertise in this area in this Chamber. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

Crime: Domestic Violence

Earl of Listowel Excerpts

Thursday 8th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Verma]

I think that my noble friend has had her question answered. On a more serious note, any victim will be supported by this Government. Victim support will always be gender neutral. We are seeing rising numbers of men being violently abused, so I agree completely with the sentiment expressed by my noble friend. This is a gender-neutral issue that we need to take in the round.

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, while recognising the devolution to local areas, can the Minister say a little about specialist services to provide access to adult, child and adolescent mental health services in situ in refuges? Are there any special arrangements for those parents and their children?

[Baroness Verma]

The noble Earl has raised another serious issue and of course we will find a prevalence of mental health issues in these cases. I very much take on board what the noble Earl has said, but I would rather write to him specifically about the work that is being done because this is a broad question that needs to be answered in detail.

Education Bill

Earl of Listowel Excerpts

Tuesday 4th October 2011 Grand Committee

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, what specific support is given to lone parents? They may, perhaps, be in the situation that the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, spoke of. She spoke of childcare support. Can the Minister provide more detail about what incentives are provided to lone parents to engage in education of this kind? I am sure that it must seem also to the noble Baroness that it is extremely important to encourage such people into education.

[Baroness Verma]

The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, raises a really important point and I hope that he will allow me to write to him in greater detail with that response.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Sharp of Guildford]

Very briefly, I entirely endorse what my noble friend Lady Brinton has said about Amendment 148. It is a very good compromise and I hope that the coalition Government will listen to what we have been saying here. As the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, has just mentioned, I have fought for a long time for equity for part-timers and it is splendid that we are almost seeing equity now. It would be very nice if it were rather fuller equity. I hope we shall see this.

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, may I ask for an assurance from the Minister on a small detail? Many social work students will be studying part-time and if they are doing a degree-level qualification, that fee will be waived. It is very welcome that the Government are raising the threshold of entry into social work and it is now becoming more expected that students will have Level 3 qualifications, so I would appreciate a reassurance that they will not be charged when they are at further education college doing their Level 3 qualifications. It is a point of detail; maybe the Minister could write to me on that.

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, I would like to respond to the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and of my noble friends Lady Brinton and Lady Sharp, in turn. I know that many noble Lords, like me, welcome the extension of loans to eligible part-time students studying at publicly funded institutions to cover the full cost of their tuition. Upfront tuition costs were identified by Lord Browne in his independent review of higher education as the primary barrier to students who want to study on a part-time basis and we have removed that barrier.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson for introducing his amendment, which raised a debate in this Room about the extension of loans to part-time students. The introduction of caps on tuition charges for part-time courses is an important part of our higher education reform. It will enable the Government to provide, for the first time, loans to eligible part-time students to cover the full cost of their tuition at publicly funded institutions, just as it does for full-time students. The Government agree with the overarching principle of Lord Browne’s independent review that those who benefit most from higher education should make a larger contribution to its costs. This holds true for those who choose to study part-time as much as those who pursue it full-time.

The Government’s reforms mean that while the teaching grant for the Higher Education Funding Council for England is being reduced or stopped completely for some subjects, universities will have access to a steady income stream from subsidised tuition loans and will get the future of sustainable funding that they need. We would be reluctant to limit to £1,000 per year the amount that institutions can charge for part-time courses. Such a limit would pose a serious risk to the financial sustainability of the part-time sector, as it would restrict a now primary source of funding. This would place part-time students at a significant disadvantage to their full-time counterparts and I am sure that the noble Lord is not advocating that.

Amendment 148 seeks to ensure that the amount of interest that could be charged on loans for part-time students should not be higher than the rate charged for full-time students. My noble friends raise an important point and one with which I agree wholeheartedly. Part-time students should be treated in exactly the same way as full-time students in the way in which interest is applied to their loans. We have never intended that full-time and part-time students should be treated differently in this respect. I hope that the indicative regulation published when this clause was in the Commons will also reassure my noble friends on this point. The regulation showed that student loans will bear interest at RPI plus 3 per cent until the individual becomes liable to repay. From this point, we will introduce a progressive system whereby low earners—again, regardless of whether they studied full-time or part-time—will be protected and accrue interest only at the rate of inflation. Those with an income of £21,000 or less—below the repayment threshold—will not need to make any repayments and will accrue interest at RPI only, which will maintain the value of the loan in real terms. For anyone with income greater than this, the rate of interest applied will increase gradually with their income, reaching a maximum of RPI plus 3 per cent at an income of £41,000. Those with incomes of £41,000 or more will accrue interest at a rate of RPI plus 3 per cent.

I hope that that has reassured my noble friends on those points. As it is our intention to apply our proposals to both full-time and part-time students and the individual’s mode of study has no impact on how the rate is calculated, it is therefore unnecessary to set this out in primary legislation.

Moving to the second point in this amendment, I understand the concern about the date that part-time students become liable to repay, though it is important to remember that whether they will actually have to begin to repay will depend on their income. Under our current proposals, part-time students become due to repay on 6 April following the third anniversary of the start date of their course, even if they continue to study. We have chosen this date as an equivalent to the time when a full-time borrower studying a three-year degree course would reach their repayment date. However, it is important to remember that no one will have to repay if their income is below £21,000. The added benefit for those part-time students who have incomes less than £41,000 is that they will at this point see a reduction in the interest that they are charged. Once part-time students become liable to repay, their interest will be dependent on their income, whereas students who have not yet reached their statutory repayment due date will be charged interest at RPI plus three per cent.

I know that some higher education institutions feel that delaying the repayment point by a further year would benefit their students, particularly those studying the equivalent of a three-year course part time over four years. I can see that this might be the case at least for those part-time students earning more than £21,000. However, the converse would be true for many other part-time students, particularly those earning under £21,000. They would be charged a higher interest rate for a further year but would not be required to repay during that year. However, I have listened to the argument very closely and I think that it would be prudent of me to go back to my right honourable friend David Willetts and raise these points with him again and commit to writing to noble Lords about these concerns. This is a very valid point and one that we need to consider very seriously.

Equality Act 2010 (Specific Duties) Regulations 2011

Earl of Listowel Excerpts

Tuesday 6th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lord Waddington on moving this amendment and on the moderate and thoughtful manner in which he moved it, giving examples of situations widely ridiculed at the time. It is not a fatal amendment. I wish that it was. I would like to get rid of the regulations.

I am going to clarify my position on the issue in the form of a confession. Some 40 years ago in the other place I was the sponsor of two separate pieces of anti-discrimination legislation. However, it was made clear at the time that these were not in favour of positive discrimination, which is a very different matter. I therefore oppose the regulations on a number of specific grounds. The objective of the regulations is absolutely right if the intention is to prevent victimisation, but it is not right because it is not about equality. It is about inequality of opportunity because it requires a protective element for some but not for others who may in fact be best suited for the job. They are not to be considered equally. They are to be considered after the protected characteristic groups. These groups are very wide and very varied, giving special protection to a wide and varied group. That is positive discrimination, which is neither fair nor equal in regulations stemming from what is the so-called Equality Act.

I emphasise my support for the stated object, that anybody should be given a chance, whatever protected characteristic they may have, as long as they can do the job better than or at least as well as other applicants who do not comply with these characteristics. There is always a chance that some bright young body might claim to have one of these characteristics in order to be considered for the job more favourably. This would only enhance the unfairness. We can only imagine how much these requirements are going to cost local authorities and their ratepayers to enact. How much additional staff will be needed? What burdens will be placed on staff who are already there? How are they to represent their reasons for not employing an able applicant who does not meet the requirements in the regulations but is after all the best person for the job?

The regulations under the Equality Act’s Explanatory Memorandum 10/4 states that this new version, presented to your Lordships’ House today, initiates various savings compared with the previous regulations of up to £205 million over 10 years. That would probably be the cost over the same period of the adoption of the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Low, if it was accepted. All of us care about the fairness with which people are treated and given jobs and about human rights, but then we look at the Equality and Human Rights Commission, which cost £70 million to set up, was recently condemned by the National Audit Office for not presenting its accounts in an acceptable manner and recently squandered more than £800,000 on a website that did not work. Is this the sort of pattern we wish to impose on local authorities? Again, I emphasise that no one wants to condone unfair discrimination in any walk of life. However, I am not at all sure that these regulations will not lead to discrimination that is more unfair than the very discrimination they seek to prevent.

[The Earl of Listowel]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, for tabling this amendment and for the work he has done in this area for many years now. I join him in expressing deep concern about what has happened to those five Catholic adoption agencies. The previous Government and this Government are well aware that voluntary adoption agencies have the best outcomes for children. They provide the best stability and the longer term support for those children and their families to see that those children do well. It is a matter of very great regret that those five agencies have closed. Will the Minister assure me that the guidance makes clear that the principles in the Children Act 1989 and the Children Act 2004 are paramount, that the interests of the child are paramount and that where it is considered that it is in the best interests of children not to be placed with same-sex couples, agencies can do so? I believe it is a perfectly tenable position. I have worked in this House on child welfare for 12 years now and, in my view, it is not generally in the child’s best interests to be placed in that situation. I may be wrong in that view, but there are many professionals who share it. It is not proven that it is safe or in the best interests of children to place them in such settings. I think Professor Golombok—I hope I have her name correctly—has done the most work in this area, but she looks only to the age of 18 and the sample of families examined is quite small. I should be most grateful to the Minister if she could assure me that the guidance will be clear about the paramountcy of the welfare of children, about agencies’ ability to decide where that interest lies and that we will not be seeing a repeat of what happened with those five Catholic adoption agencies.

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

My Lords, I should declare a couple of interests before I say anything. First, I was the architect of a Private Member's Bill on equality that went through this House and became a kind of model for what came later. Secondly, I am counsel to the National Secular Society in the intervention in the pending Strasbourg proceedings and, therefore, will not say anything about the cases that have been placed before the European Court of Human Rights. Thirdly, I am so old that I can remember listening for the past 40 years to the arguments I heard just now basically attacking equality legislation root and branch and suggesting it should be consigned to the dustbin.

The most useful way in which I can assist the House is to begin by explaining a bit more about the framework within which this debate takes place as that might throw some light on what we are talking about. The previous Government, with all-party support—I commend the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, in particular for having led the Government at the time on this issue in this House—were responsible for introducing Section 149 of the Equality Act, which is the public sector equality duty. That duty was already in our law in relation to gender, ethnicity and disability, but it was strengthened in important respects by the previous Government with support from all three main parties right across the House. The duty requires every public authority in the exercise of its functions to have due regard to three things: first, to eliminate discrimination, harassment, victimisation and other conduct which is prohibited; secondly, to advance equality of opportunity between people who share a relevant protected characteristic and those who do not; and, thirdly, to foster good relations between people who share a relevant protected characteristic and others.

The duty covers various grounds, including religion or belief. I assume that even the staunchest opponents of the legislation are pleased that discrimination on grounds of religion and belief is covered. I say with all respect that it has nothing to do with positive discrimination, which is dealt with in a limited form by a completely different provision. It imposes a general public sector duty. There are particular problems about the way in which the duty treats religion and belief in the same way as the other protected characteristics. Some would argue, and I would be one of them, that religion is too strongly protected in the legislation, but we really need not go into that today.

The Explanatory Notes on the Equality Act make it clear that a whole range of religions, including Catholicism, Protestantism, Liberal Judaism, Orthodox Judaism and various forms of Islam, are to be looked at individually and separately if there is an allegation of discrimination. That is the framework. The power being exercised under the regulations is to give better governance in complying with that general duty. Complaints about the Act itself were settled by the previous Parliament when it enacted the legislation.

Where I part company with the noble Lord, Lord Low, with whom I hate ever to disagree, is in believing that his amendment—I have already had the advantage of speaking to him about it—is a real example of overregulation of the worst kind. The best way in which I can illustrate that is by giving just one example, that of religion. Under the general duty, every public authority has to have due regard to the three things that I mentioned. The first thing that an authority has to do under the law is to identify within its area various religious, irreligious, non-religious and atheistic groups. Then it has to decide whether something needs to be done in order to tackle inequality, discrimination and so on with regard to those groups. The regulations strip down the core needs to ensure compliance with the general duty in a well targeted and sensible way. They state that each public authority must publish information to demonstrate its compliance with the Section 149 duty, which is quite right and entirely sensible. They further state that the information has to include information relating to persons who share a relevant protected characteristic, which they define—perfectly sensible. The third thing that the authority must do is prepare and publish one or more objectives that it thinks will achieve the things that I have already mentioned. Again, that is perfectly sensible. Then they say that the objective must be “specific and measurable” —again entirely sensible.

The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Low, would add that each public authority in the country must,

“publish information on equality analyses they have undertaken … set objectives designed to facilitate compliance with the General Equality Duty … publish information about the engagement they have had with affected groups when developing these objectives and … report annually on progress towards meeting these objectives”.

I do not wish to be unmannerly in saying that it reads a bit Soviet—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Verma]

My noble friend is right, but it is about ensuring that there are those equalities of opportunity. That is what the regulations lay out.

My noble friend Lord Waddington asked about adoption agencies and the fact that some have had to close. I think the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, also mentioned that. Let me be clear that the Equality Act (Sexual Orientation) Regulations 2007 and the Equality Act which replaces them did not and do not mean that faith-based adoption agencies must close. Nor do they mean that those agencies cannot restrict their services of recruiting and assessing prospective adopters to people who are Catholic. They just mean that those agencies must not refuse their services to prospective adopters just because they are lesbian, gay or bisexual. It is an important principle that publicly funded services should be provided to people irrespective of their sexual orientation.

[The Earl of Listowel]

I could not quite understand what the Minister just said. Could she rephrase it, because it was not clear to me?

[Baroness Verma]

The noble Earl may read Hansard tomorrow.

In response to my noble friend Lord Tebbit, I declare an interest as a person who has a business in the care sector. The specific duties will ensure that those receiving publicly funded services are responded to through those services more appropriately to their requirements. The duties do not create discrimination; they will enhance the services that people receive.

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

Earl of Listowel Excerpts

Thursday 9th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, I have been shocked in the past when this issue has arisen and we have looked at the close connection of alcohol abuse and binge drinking with domestic violence and the abuse of children. In listening to the debate I am reminded of a young man who told me that he made sure that he was at home when his father came back from the pub because he wanted to stand between his father and his mother when his father started hitting her or tried to hit her. I urge the Government to be as robust as possible in their strategy. I hope that they are listening carefully to this debate.

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I apologise to my noble friends and other noble Lords who were unaware of the regrouping of these amendments.

The Government agree that there is significant merit in making health a material consideration in the Licensing Act 2003 and I thank noble Lords for raising these important issues. Indeed, we have already committed to making health a licensing objective and will take this forward in the near future. I take the point made by my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones, and at this stage it is essential that full consideration is given to the potential impact to ensure that any changes are considered within the wider health context. We are currently in discussions with the Department of Health with a view to developing policy options—indeed we are in the process of testing these options with lawyers. However, I ask noble Lords to accept that we require more time to finalise them.

As I say, we have committed to including health as a licensing objective in the Department of Health’s alcohol strategy, which, as the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe, said, is due for publication later this year.

I say in response to my noble friend Lord Astor that we are keen to move forward on implementing the ban on below-cost sales and that it will be in place later this year. Banning the sale of alcohol below the floor price of duty plus VAT is an important first step which can be easily implemented while tackling the worst instances of deep discounting.

The noble Lord, Lord Brooke, raised the issue of fees. We will be dealing with that in considerable detail when we get to the group of amendments that starts with Amendment 240Z and deals with Clauses 121 and 122.

On Amendment 244 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, cumulative impact policies are an existing tool which licensing authorities have available to limit the availability of alcohol in their local areas. For example, where a significant number of licensed bars in a specific area are causing problems, the licensing authority is able to consider a range of evidence relating to crime and disorder or public nuisance and identify specific areas that are causing these problems. It can then introduce a cumulative impact policy, of which it must publish details in its statements of licensing policy. Once in place, any evidence that new premises in respect of which a licence is applied for would have a negative effect on cumulative impact raises a rebuttable presumption that the application will be refused.

Cumulative impact policies are already in place and have been effective in limiting the availability of alcohol in problem areas. The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, wants them to be more effective. However, it is worth saying that at present 134 cumulative impact policies have been successfully applied by 83 of the 350 licensing authorities.

A critical problem with the current situation is that the licensing authority can apply its cumulative impact policy only when it receives a relevant representation regarding the cumulative impact. We are taking forward a proposal in the Bill to make licensing authorities responsible authorities under the Licensing Act. This means that a licensing authority will be able to apply its cumulative impact policy without first having to receive a representation from a third party regarding the cumulative impact. This will ensure that licensing authorities have more power and flexibility to limit the availability of alcohol in their local areas. We are concerned that this amendment would increase the burden that licensing authorities already face when introducing a cumulative impact policy. For these reasons, I hope that I can persuade noble Lords not to press their amendments.

Drugs: Classification

Earl of Listowel Excerpts

Tuesday 9th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, I accept the trend of that comment from the noble Lord. It is indeed the case that tobacco is harmful, as he has just said. I think the House would agree that alcohol taken in moderation is not so harmful.

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, I thank the Minister and her colleagues for examining policy in this area, but will they consider very carefully the pricing of alcohol, particularly in consideration of the young people who binge drink and the association of criminality with the heavy intake of alcohol? Pricing might discourage that.

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

As the noble Earl may know, the Government are introducing policies that will prevent the sale of alcohol below cost, and will toughen the penalties for those who engage and persist in selling alcohol to underage consumers.

Immigration: Detention of Children

Earl of Listowel Excerpts

Monday 11th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, I wish I could give a date. We cannot do that because, as things stand, we are taking seriously the whole business of how we bring about a situation whereby it is no longer necessary to detain children. It requires time to get the right procedures in place and, if I may put it this way, it is an earnest of our seriousness that we are going into considerable detail to get the right procedures.

[The Earl of Listowel]

Will the Minister consider extending from two weeks to three months the window for families to consider voluntary returns? Is she aware that in Sweden in 2008, 82 per cent of families chose to take the voluntary return route?

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, I am aware that this figure of a fortnight has got around to being perceived as some sort of deadline, whereas a fortnight is the absolute minimum period that the families are given to consider voluntary return. I do not want to set a timetable for the other end. We would obviously like to achieve a high rate of voluntary return which would take place as soon as was possible and at the least cost to the taxpayer.