Financial Services and Markets Bill

Debate between Earl of Kinnoull and Lord Naseby

Committee stage
Wednesday 1st February 2023 Grand Committee

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

My Lords, in moving Amendment 45 in my name, I will speak also to Amendment 63. I apologise for being unable to contribute at Second Reading; the opening speeches were at the same time as a major evidence session for the European Affairs Committee. However, I sat through much of the debate and have my well-thumbed copy of Hansard here. I declare my relevant interests, as set out the register, as a shareholder of Hiscox Ltd and Schroders plc and a director of Alpha Insurance Analysts.

In my commercial career, I was a director, chief executive or chair of regulated financial services businesses in eight different major jurisdictions. I dealt with the regulators in those jurisdictions and regulators in other EU jurisdictions because of the passporting regimes, and with regulators in places where we decided not to set things up.

However, this amendment has nothing to do with that. Its genesis was in the report of the European Affairs Committee from June last year, The UK-EU Relationship in Financial Services. That report was a major piece of work; we took evidence from a galaxy of stars, including two of the four deputy governors of the Bank of England. The report was settled in the usual House of Lords way, on a unanimous basis.

Paragraph 145 of our report begins a section titled “A competitiveness objective”. In considering this, the committee was trying to form a better view on four real issues: first, the wisdom or otherwise of a competitiveness objective; secondly, what it actually meant; thirdly, how a regulator might implement such a thing; fourthly, how Parliament might scrutinise it. We will come to the fourth issue when we discuss later amendments, particularly those to Clause 36.

We put the problem of the competitiveness objective to our galaxy of star witnesses, including both of the deputy governors of the Bank of England. It was quite difficult for us to form a view on the wisdom of it because, throughout our evidence generally, there were considerable differences among all the witnesses as to what a competitiveness objective amounted to. That difference in the set of views, which were honestly held, was quite difficult for us to reconcile. While the committee generally felt that it was a good idea, it was a bit like how I took the mood of the Second Reading debate to be. There was an interesting set of differences in what it meant; if you do not know what it really means, it is jolly difficult to implement it consistently across a regulator. How will you do that not only between regulators but within a regulator when the FCA has several thousand employees? We were a bit dubious about that. In terms of scrutiny, if it is all unclear above you, scrutinising it is jolly difficult.

The committee tried to assist in this. We wrote various descriptive paragraphs; in paragraph 151, the first of our two conclusive paragraphs on this—not on actual scrutiny—we said:

“The Committee notes that, as a result of the Future Regulatory Framework Review, the Government is considering introducing an additional, secondary ‘competitiveness’ objective for the Financial Conduct Authority and the Prudential Regulation Authority. However, it is equally important for the UK’s overall economic competitiveness for the Government and regulators to work together to develop a broader regulatory culture that is responsive, consistent, and proportionate”—


I emphasise those words.

Noble Lords will have noted that the words “responsiveness”, “consistency” and “proportionality” appear in Amendments 45 and 63. These amendments are designed to give effect to what we as a committee wanted to do, which was to give some directional help to regulators as to how they would be able to implement a competitiveness thing and to have measurable things before them. I must say that I have played the refrain of “responsiveness, consistency and proportionality” to various market associations since the report and I have heard nothing but a feeling that that is at least a start in finding a way of being able to help to define this elusive thing of the competitiveness objective.

It is worth quoting our second paragraph of conclusions:

“We ask the Government, in its response to this report, to explain in further detail how a secondary ‘competitiveness’ objective would be applied by the regulators in practice and how success will be measured.”


The Government’s response to our report was, in general, a very good one. I worked out that I have been in receipt —either as a committee chair or member—of well over 50 government responses, and I can promise noble Lords that this one was pretty good. On this particular bit, however, it was very weak. The response on this area had a quite a lot of paragraphs, but most simply repeated the question. The operative sentence is:

“The regulators will be responsible for operationalising their new objectives.”


I must say that my spellcheck is not modern enough for “operationalising”, so I am not quite sure what that means. But I am sure that the Government are washing their hands of that, which I feel is a mistake.

I submit that the European Affairs Committee’s view on this—remembering, of course, that the committee is cross-party and this was, as usual, an entirely unanimous report—is that there are three benefits to having clarity in this area. First, as a client—either an existing client or a prospective new client who wants to come in to be regulated in the United Kingdom—it provides some clarity. It is jolly good, let me say, if you are thinking of moving capital or business to a jurisdiction, to feel that the regulator will be responsive and consistent and will take a proportionate view of things. Those are all things that are directly relevant to any decision to set up in that jurisdiction or to maintain yourself in that jurisdiction.

Secondly, it is good for the regulators, because they will then know what they are meant to be doing. As I said, we asked regulators about that in our evidence sessions and we heard different answers as to what the thing meant. Thirdly, it is good for scrutineers. We, as scrutineers—I have jumped over the fence now; I am a solid scrutineer and do not do any business at all—will be able to ask the right questions and to have metrics given to us to see whether the regulators are doing a good job. That, I would submit, is a win-win-win scenario.

These two amendments build faithfully on the work of a major committee of this House and should, I feel, properly be part of this Bill. I beg to move Amendment 45.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, I will not repeat what the noble Earl has said, but I thank him for the depth of his proposal and the work that he has done in tabling these amendments.

I remind the Committee that I have chaired two quoted companies. I have been chairman of one friendly society and seen through both Houses the Mutuals’ Deferred Shares Act, so I think that I have some heritage, in particular in the mutual movement, which I think is really important to our society and our economy. I take a deep interest in that mutual movement and, indeed, I know that my noble friend on the Front Bench and the Government are particularly concerned about helping the mutual movement move forward. This group of amendments is there to help that.

For me, these two amendments are central to the Bill. I have said this before and will say it again: growth in financial services is dependent on, and an extension of, what is happening in the financial world. There are some really exciting new developments happening, but they need help and occasionally a little persuasion. The FCA has a major challenge on its hands. I welcome that, as I am sure it does, but there is an understandable danger that having an increased spectrum of activities is new to the FCA. It should be reminded to look around the corner, do a little investigation and find out what is happening underneath and therefore what is coming forward. I am sure it will do that, but it needs prompting and these amendments do that.

I say finally to my noble friend on the Front Bench that the mutual movement, both the friendly societies and the credit unions, is looking for new ways to raise capital. That is fundamental to both those mutuals. I therefore hope the Government will look at the noble Earl’s amendment with an open mind and accept it.

United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Debate between Earl of Kinnoull and Lord Naseby

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 26th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (The Earl of Kinnoull) (Non-Afl)]

I call the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon. Do we have Lord Morris of Aberavon? We will move on.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, I apologise to the House. I understand I was on the list for Amendment 5, but I never applied to speak on that one.

This is an interesting amendment. My colleagues, the noble Baronesses, Lady Noakes and Lady Neville-Rolfe, have already made the point that we are very close to 1 January—in fact, we are 66 days away, by a quick calculation—and so I look at that time dimension against the complications within this proposed new clause.

As I said much earlier in the evening, I am a marketing man by profession; I worked very closely with a large number of manufacturers when I was a senior director in one of the major advertising agencies. I find some of the elements of this amendment, or proposed new clause, too prescriptive. Take subsection (1)(a), where the whole principle is that nothing is going to happen until the

“access principles may be applied”

and have been “exhausted”. We are in a time framework where that is not going to work. It may be necessary, later on, to look at how it does work in principle, and maybe some changes should be made then.

I worry deeply. We are a creative nation. We are in an enormous period of change. One sees now what is happening in the fintech world: it is moving forward at an enormous rate, and it does not want to be stultified by a whole series of restrictions before it can be added to a particular schedule or not. All of us are conscious that there is a whole variety of different companies, across the world, trying to find an answer to Covid-19 through new drugs and vaccines.

Personally, I am terribly practical, and I just do not see the elements of this amendment helping the United Kingdom move forward. There may be bits of it that have some relevance—I am sure there are—and I recognise that they are put forward with a genuineness by people who want things to work. But when I listen to the noble Lord opposite talk about the Welsh Government, and having observed what is happening down in Wales now, one has to say that it is not terribly practical. I am not sure that the credibility of the Welsh Government is very strong in today’s world.

I hope my noble friend on the Front Bench will understand that, perhaps in the future, some of these elements may need to be applied, but, as matters stand today, with 66 days to go, frankly, I do not think that this proposed new clause helps at all.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (The Earl of Kinnoull) (Non-Afl)]

I call the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon.

Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill [HL]

Debate between Earl of Kinnoull and Lord Naseby

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 6th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

My Lords, it is always a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness. I am grateful to her for having responded with such grace and clarity to a point I made six months ago in a similar debate. I should begin by declaring my interests and saying that I am in the curious position of deeply respecting the people who have signed the amendment, and usually agreeing with everything they say, but of disagreeing with what they say tonight. I will explain why.

If we in this Chamber sought to legislate for Scotland in a matter of devolved competence, and we did so without the consent of the Scottish Parliament, we can imagine what a hell of a hullaballoo would be raised immediately. We would be reading about it in every newspaper and the media would be full of it. Indeed, the media are fairly full of warnings from the Scottish Government every day that we must not do that. As a resident of Scotland—not so far from Glen Clova, in fact—I can tell the House that there are deep feelings in Scotland about someone coming into our competence. I know that that will be the same in Wales. I was with the EU Select Committee when we visited the Welsh Parliament, and in the course of a day that point was made to me probably half a dozen times by different Welsh politicians, from every different denomination and party within Wales.

Indeed, as a Parliament we developed the Sewel convention to cope with this situation, and it has been put into the memorandum of understanding. The October 2013 version says that,

“the UK Government will proceed in accordance with the convention that the UK Parliament would not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters except with the agreement of the devolved legislature”.

Indeed, we put that into statute—certainly in the Scotland Act 2016, and I think in the equivalent Wales and Northern Ireland legislation. It has, of course, been litigated.

I have here the Miller judgment, and in his outstanding judgment—from which I shall quote shortly—the noble and learned Lord, Lord Neuberger, rather elegantly reminds us, in paragraph 144, that the Sewel convention was not invented at that time, but that its substance was actually in effect between the UK and Southern Rhodesia, because the leading case in the Privy Council from 1969 discussed that. The Sewel convention represents something that this Parliament has had for a long time, and it stretches out to our Commonwealth as well as to our devolved Administrations here.

In the final paragraph of the five pages considering the convention, the noble and learned Lord says:

“In reaching this conclusion we do not underestimate the importance of constitutional conventions, some of which play a fundamental role in the operation of our constitution. The Sewel convention has an important role in facilitating harmonious relationships between the UK Parliament and the devolved legislatures”.


I repeat all that, and make a meal of it, because I have to say that the countries concerned and named in the amendment—I use the word “countries”, having lived in Bermuda for a number of years—are very proud and sophisticated places. Bermuda is incredibly sophisticated: its GDP per head is much bigger than that of the UK; its reinsurance industry overtook the UK’s in size in 2004, and is much bigger and very sophisticated. It would hate any infection of the sort of corrupt and criminal behaviour that has been elegantly referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Stern. Everyone working on Bermuda feels—as I and every Member of this House does—that chasing down these corrupt and criminal individuals and their money is very important.

Therefore, we should not legislate without at least consulting these Parliaments, and getting their agreement to do so. It would be deeply wrong and very counter- productive not to do that. If one were to think of legislating, one should do so under the Sewel convention if there is strong evidence that something very bad is going on, and there is no ability to address that. However, I have to say that the evidence is the other way. I looked again at the Wikipedia article on the Panama papers. About half way down that article, there is a rather good league table of the banks that had been involved in that affair. Four of the top 10 banks listed in the league table were based in Luxembourg. None of the top 10 banks was based in any of the countries listed in this amendment. Therefore, we are getting slightly ahead of ourselves. Certainly, there appears to be a bit of work to do at home in the EU before it starts trying to do a lot of work outside.

When responding on the then Criminal Finances Bill, the noble Baroness, Lady Williams—I am sorry not to be able to read out the relevant bits—said that the Government and the overseas territories discussed these issues round the table almost as if they were members of a family, and that there were a lot of subtle ways in which the British Government could try to make sure that there was continual progress on this very important issue. She assured the House that such measures produced continual progress. In my experience, I think they do as well. The thinking behind this amendment is admirable. I hate all this disgusting stuff perpetrated by corrupt and criminal people as much as anyone, but I do not think that the amendment pushes the ball further up the pitch. It would be very damaging constitutionally to our relationships with our loyal overseas territories. We should continue to take the road we have taken so far, which is to push the ball gradually up the pitch, as and when our Government meet representatives of our overseas territories and discuss issues such as that which came out of the EU yesterday.

[Lord Naseby]

My Lords, I declare an interest as vice-chairman of the All-Party Parliamentary Group for the Cayman Islands. In addition, a member of my family lives in the Cayman Islands. I very much support what the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, has just said.

We have come a long way in the best part of 18 months from a situation in which there was no statutory methodology whereby United Kingdom law enforcement agencies could get information from any of the overseas territories in a reasonable length of time and know that it had been properly produced. Speaking only from my knowledge of the Cayman Islands, that information is now available 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. That is rather better than Her Majesty’s Companies House is capable of doing. I think that is a great advance.

I deeply regret what the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, said: namely, that when Cayman Islands representatives went over to Brussels recently, they were protected by Her Majesty’s Government. They went on their own, put their material before the authorities there, and, quite rightly, the authorities listened properly and recognised the progress that had been made. That is why the Cayman Islands are not on the blacklist. Of course, the volume of financial operations in Bermuda and the Cayman Islands is extensive—so, understandably, anybody who is concerned about financial transactions will keep a watch on what is happening. That is absolutely right and justified.

The noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, rightly referred to Luxembourg. Top four—not the bottom four. What about other parts of the world? The USA is probably in the clear, as I am sure that the central government of the USA is in the clear. However, it is totally incapable of controlling Delaware, Nevada and half a dozen other states. We are supposed to have a special relationship with the United States. That is not much good if we accept an amendment such as this and find that all the people in our overseas territories are thrown out of business as their legitimate business is undercut totally by Delaware and Nevada—particularly Delaware.

Therefore, I say to your Lordships, “Tread carefully. Recognise that huge progress has been made in the last 18 months and that we now have a situation where our authorities can get concrete evidence when it is required”. We are not getting that out of the present system of control in the United Kingdom. We can go out of this Chamber tonight, go through the smart parts of central London and see how many of those houses are unlit. Do none of us wonder who owns those houses? Do we think the British own them? We all know in our heart of hearts that they are not owned by British people, and almost certainly not by continentals. That money has come from somewhere. It seems to me pretty likely that it is hot money. So I ask noble Lords to think long and hard before they start to destroy these overseas territories.

I was sorry that the noble Baroness who introduced this amendment brought in human rights. I have had the privilege of working and living in Pakistan, India and Sri Lanka and I know that part of the world extremely well. Legitimate British companies working there are not exploiting people. They have brought employment there, better living conditions and all the rest. The noble Baroness is quite wrong to suggest that every company operating there—or the vast majority—is exploiting these poorer countries. I ask the noble Baroness and others to find some real, concrete examples rather than generic ones. That is why I will resist the idea of a public register until such time as we have given the existing one time to work, and until such time as the EU and the United Kingdom persuade the United States to join in with producing uniform reporting. I say to my noble friend on the Front Bench that I hope Her Majesty’s Government will tread carefully and recognise the work that has been achieved so far in a pretty short measure of time.