Business of the House

Debate between Earl of Kinnoull and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Thursday 8th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, it is quite clear that, while some Members may be looking fresh-faced, bright and breezy this morning, others are looking a bit bleary-eyed. The difficulty with very late—or, I should say, early morning—sittings is that they exclude Members who have contributions to make who cannot remain as late.

This is a complex and controversial Bill that we are discussing, which needs examination and scrutiny. May I put forward three suggestions? First, we still have no impact assessment for the Bill. It has been through the Commons; it is now in Committee here and we have Report to come. It would be very helpful if the noble Baroness could commit that, before we get to Report, the impact assessment will be ready. The guidance on legislation says that it should be ready at the start of a Bill’s consideration; I do not think it unreasonable to ask to have the impact assessment before Report.

Secondly, I appreciate that the Minister is relatively new to his job, but I hope he will come to recognise that the House appreciates full answers, co-operation and collaboration. It is possible to disagree agreeably. That kind of co-operation across the House would help the passage of a Bill that is contentious.

Thirdly, it would be helpful to the entire House if all of us, when speaking—and to coin a phrase from the radio—avoided hesitation, repetition and deviation. My noble friend Lord Kennedy has been giving this a great deal of thought—he had until 4.30 am to do so. It would be helpful to have an early meeting of the usual channels to look for a way forward. We recognise that the Government want to get their legislation through and to proceed in a timely manner, but we also want to have the proper debate and discussion that we need.

I agree that, if we are sitting late, it is a courtesy to Parliament as a whole that the caterers, doorkeepers, Lord Speaker’s office and others involved be made aware of that—if there is any possibility of it happening again.

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

My Lords, it is slightly “three in the hoose” to say the same thing, but I think it is worth underlining these points. Yesterday’s events were, by any measure, extreme. They underline the absolute importance of communication, which came up short yesterday.

Our community is quite a big one. The community of Members is part of that, and we were under the impression that things would be wrapped up shortly after midnight. The deputies community—I am of course a deputy as well—had rostered for the hour after midnight, so it was caught short. I note that the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, is not in his place; I hope he is sleeping the sleep of heroes.

There are other members of the community as well; I have written down a few: our doorkeepers, our clerks, Hansard, the catering staff, the broadcast staff, and even a gentleman in the facilities department who is always here when we are sitting. Communication with these people is essential, and I think we can do better. I therefore ask the noble Baroness the Chief Whip—I suppose it is she who is going to respond—to confirm that she is committed to the principle of even-handed treatment of and strong communication with our community on these things, because then we can manage much better.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Earl of Kinnoull and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 12th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

Noble Lords will be glad to hear that I will be brief. The European Union Select Committee and EU Justice Sub-Committee have been given estimates of the number of SIs concerned. Our estimate was 5,000; I was interested to hear the noble Baroness, Lady Young, say that it was only 1,000. My point is the same either way. In my language, the Bill essentially amounts to a gigantic pink ticket where we are asked to trust the Government. In the commercial world, one tries to trust and verify. You give out your trust, but you retain the ability to verify it, so that if something goes wrong you can sort it out later on.

This group of amendments tries to deal with three problems. The first is the mistakes, as the noble Baroness pointed out. The second is wrongnesses. We had a good example of these from the noble Lord, Lord Patel, earlier on. If we carried through a particular piece of EU legislation without thinking then a wrongness would be done. Third is the necessity for the scrutiny of Parliament; the verification process that follows on from the trust. As I look at the three sets of proposals on how to deal with these three problems, I have some sympathy for the noble Lord, Lord Lisvane, who said that there is not really time to do the consultation suggested by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee. I regret that, but there certainly is not time, whether it is 5,000 or 1,000. The ever-canny and thoughtful noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, has come up with an ingenious way of trying to cater for that. Turning to the noble Viscount’s idea of a two-year life span, I am only concerned that if we are going to have to do 1,000 pieces of legislation then two years is probably not enough. The number I wrote down was five. However, that is a very useful way of doing it and my favourite route tonight would be the one he has taken.

All that being said, what is important in parliamentary terms is a mechanism for trusting and verifying. We will have failed if we do not get some kind of verification procedure in there. I look forward to the Minister’s comments.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

When I speak at this time of night, I often recall the words of a friend who said to me shortly after I became a Member of the House of Lords, “You’re in the House of Lords now—you must be semi-retired”. As we are debating issues at almost half-past midnight, I do not feel semi-retired at all.

This is a very useful group of amendments for the Minister and the Government. As my noble friend Lady Young of Old Scone said, they are designed to be helpful, and I think their content makes that clear. It is only in your Lordships’ House that technical issues around SIs cause any excitement or great interest for noble Lords who have expertise in them. I hope that when the Minister responds she will accept these amendments or take them away and come back with something similar as a way forward on the Bill.

First, I wish to make some general comments. Issues around SIs and accuracy have been foremost in my mind since we first heard about the number of SIs that would flow from this Bill. Indeed, when I, the noble Lord, Lord Newby, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, gave evidence to the Commons Select Committee and to our Constitution Committee, we specifically raised the issue of accuracy and the number of SIs we would have. The noble Baroness the Leader of the House can confirm that I discussed these issues with her. I welcome the fact that so far eight draft statutory instruments have been published on the Government’s website—perhaps the sample to which the Minister referred in his letter to my noble friend Lady Young. However, I am not sure what the purpose of a sample is other than to show how we can look at SIs and the issues that can be addressed in so doing. I think the noble Lord, Lord Lisvane, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Hamwee and Lady Neville-Rolfe, said that we need guidance on accuracy and getting SIs right. As my noble friend Lady Young said, we have one opportunity to get these measures right. They cannot be amended and making a mistake could have serious consequences. As more SIs appear on the website in draft, as I hope they will, I suggest to the Government that there should be a separate link and some kind of classification process as we want stakeholders and others with expertise and interest in this area to be able to identify them and find them instantly without first having to search through pages and pages to get to them.

On that basis, I welcome the agreement the Procedure Committee has reached with regard to the sifting and consideration of statutory instruments, as we have seen in this legislation. As in the House of Commons, we have 10 days in which to conduct a sifting process on the Bill and in which the committee will consider whether there should be an affirmative Motion, and then, in the normal way we conduct business in your Lordships’ House, we consider the merits of the order. We should be under no illusions: this is a huge task to be undertaken. Even the setting up of in effect a separate committee by having two sub-committees will not mean that all the work is undertaken that it is necessary to do. Given the scale of the work ahead, I welcome the suggestions we have had today on how we can draw on the experience and expertise of stakeholders, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, said, to deal with the issue of accuracy. It is not an issue of policy or change but of accuracy.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, said, we have one opportunity to get this right. Given the nature of the consultation, it is a good idea to provide an explanatory document. That is extremely important. The principle of her amendments is sound. My only disagreement is that I do not think they go far enough in that she selects certain areas to be addressed. I am sure she understands the need to have the opportunity to debate all the SIs. I think the noble Lord, Lord Lisvane, made the point in a slightly different way but if there is a draft of all SIs and consultations on all of them, the formal consideration can be speeded up at that point rather than have problems arise later.

The amendment of my noble friend Lady Young is important. I raised it in the Procedure Committee as her amendment rightly goes beyond the Bill to address Brexit-related orders from other legislation. Our committees would be able to examine any secondary legislation, whether related to Brexit or not—most will be although that is difficult to define—but the sifting power currently applies only to the withdrawal Bill. Negative SIs relating to other legislation will not be included in that process. That point was made by our Constitution Committee in its report on the road haulage Bill.

The amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, reflect the concern that has featured in other debates: for example, the issues around what is “appropriate” or “necessary”, and ministerial discretion. Therefore, given the avalanche of orders we may face, it will be helpful to consult on all SIs, not just leave it to the discretion of Ministers.