Europe: Renegotiation
Debate between Earl of Courtown and Lord Garel-Jones(9 years ago)
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The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, mentioned the detail of my right honourable friend’s speech earlier today. He said:
“We now know that, at any one time, around 40% of all recent European Economic Area migrants are supported by the UK benefits system … with each family claiming on average around £6,000 a year of in-work benefits alone”.
On the noble Baroness’s other point, relating to the four-year restriction, I will read out the whole paragraph I have here, if the House allows. It says:
“Our objective is to better control migration from within the EU. There are obviously different ways in which we could achieve that. We … can do that by reducing the incentives offered by our welfare system”.
That is why we set out the proposal that you must contribute before you can claim. We understand that others across the European Union also have concerns about this. That is why we say to them: “Put forward alternative proposals that deliver the same results”. We are open to different ways of dealing with this issue, as long as we do just that and agree new measures that will reduce the numbers coming here.
Lord Garel-Jones (Con)
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that one of the disappointments of the last 10 or 15 years has been the way the principle of subsidiarity, which was supposed to ensure that nothing was done centrally that could be properly done by member states, has been undermined by a bureaucratic process known as the yellow card system? It is most encouraging to hear that the Prime Minister intends to try to revive this principle and bring it back to what it was supposed to do. I suggest that that could be done without bringing about a treaty change. It is perfectly possible for the Commission itself to extend autonomously the period of eight weeks, which is all that national parliaments are given at the moment to consider new proposals. It is also perfectly possible for it not just to extend the time but to say that it will regard the yellow card as a red card. If those two things could be achieved, it would really enhance the role of national parliaments in the legislative process.
Picking up the point made by the noble Baroness on proportionality, I think it is now the case that qualified majority voting is population-related. Therefore, to a large extent, proportionality has already been introduced into the system.
The Earl of Courtown
My noble friend, with his great knowledge of this subject, explained something to me there, for which I am most grateful. If I need to write to him, I will.
United Kingdom and the European Union
Debate between Earl of Courtown and Lord Garel-Jones
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, the first phase of the work requires just these technical discussions. This is the start of the process. These discussions should be led by substance, not schedule. I quite understand the points made by the noble Lord, with all his experience of the trade union movement, but we are not going to show our hand and give our position away to other members.
Lord Garel-Jones (Con)
Does my noble friend the Minister agree that few things could be more damaging to Britain’s negotiating position than to go beyond the broad areas that he has just pointed out and to go into the fine detail referred to by the noble Lord?
The Earl of Courtown
My noble friend is quite right. He has great experience in this area as well. To show our hand too early would not be conducive to help.