Iran
Debate between Earl of Courtown and Baroness Northover(4 years, 7 months ago)
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Baroness Northover (LD)
My Lords, I too thank the Minister for repeating the Statement.
I declare an interest in that I, with a cross-party group, was the guest of the Saudi Government for one day at the beginning of this week and was shown the damage at the Abqaiq Saudi Aramco site. Clearly this was a sophisticated and extremely well-targeted attack and I note that the Government, along with others, hold Iran responsible. I came away from that visit thinking that we in the UK are so distracted by Brexit that we are not paying sufficient attention to what might become the trigger for further appalling conflict in a very volatile region. I therefore welcome the fact that Parliament was, as it turns out, never prorogued, and that we are here to address this vital issue.
I am very glad that the Minister has said that the Government wish to “de-escalate tensions”. I welcome the fact that the Saudi foreign ministry spokesperson spoke of caution last week. Experts have spoken of this event as possibly having the same effect as that which triggered the First World War. That was repeated in Saudi Arabia, though some pointed to the very different triggers for the Second World War. Still, that is the potential significance of this event.
Does the Minister agree that the US contributed to risks in the region by pulling out of the JCPOA deal and deciding that maximum pressure was the route to go down? Does he recall the effect of the conclusion of the First World War in terms of what happened two decades later?
As the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, has mentioned, the Prime Minister echoed President Trump on Monday in stating that the JCPOA was a bad deal—a deal that was exceptionally difficult to negotiate, as the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, who is in her place, can surely attest to. That is a change in our position. Later it was stated that we still supported the deal, which has now morphed into, “We support the deal but we’d like to tweak it and change it”, in order to also align with America. Could the Minister clarify whether the Government still argue that we support that nuclear deal, which was so difficult to negotiate and was a striking achievement? Do we agree that it was of major significance in restraining Iran in the nuclear field? Or are the Government seeking to align more closely with the US than with our European allies?
Speaking at the UN, President Macron said he was hoping for a breakthrough with Iran over the possibility of reopening talks in the coming hours. Can the Minister update us? What representations did the Government make to their US counterparts regarding the importance of that deal? The Daily Mail reports that the Prime Minister, on meeting the Iranian President, has now invited him to London. Can the Minister fill us in on the purpose of this visit? Has any progress been made in relation to dual nationals, such as Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe? Did the PM—I echo the noble Lord who spoke before—correct his earlier erroneous statement about her?
We rightly urge adherence to international law, in Saudi Arabia, in Yemen and elsewhere. I note mention within the Statement of Iran’s role in Yemen and not that of Saudi Arabia. We clearly need to engage with Iran to ensure that it too respects international law, whether in relation to sea lanes, as mentioned, or attacks on its neighbours. Does the Minister agree that, especially with a very unpredictable leader in the White House, we must work very closely with our European allies and through the UN on this major crisis? Does he agree that we have the makings of yet another devastating war in the Middle East, and that global statesmanship will be needed if we are to avoid such an outcome?
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord and the noble Baroness for their questions and contributions to this debate. I hope to address many of the points they raised in one answer, and if I miss anything I will write. Many of the questions involved the JCPOA and its future. We acknowledge that it is not perfect in its present form, but I confirm, as the noble Baroness said, that it has stopped Iran getting a nuclear weapon and we remain committed to that. However, we have always recognised that it did not cover Iran’s dangerous activities in the Gulf. The attack on Saudi oil facilities last week has underlined how much we need to address that area as well. A number of issues have come together: Iran’s increasingly aggressive behaviour and non-compliance with the nuclear deal; and the US policy of maximum pressure. The UK wants to draw on our strong relationship with the US, as well as with our European allies, to work together on a plan that, to repeat the word, de-escalates the situation, because it is a serious situation and the only way forward is to de-escalate it.
The noble Lord, Lord McNicol, mentioned the military input by the Americans. As far as the United Kingdom is concerned, we always take requests from our allies seriously, and we have received requests from Saudi Arabia to support its air defence systems. We will examine what we can do to help in that defensive respect, but once again, we do not want to escalate things. Helping our allies to secure their territory is important to regional stability.
The noble Lord and the noble Baroness both mentioned dual nationals. As my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary said in the Statement, he has had regular meetings with Iranian Foreign Secretary Zarif, and the Prime Minister also raised these cases with President Rouhani yesterday in New York. I do not know the exact details of those conversations and what was said in relation either to Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe or the others, Australians in many cases, who are detained in Iran. As far as those with Australian passports are concerned—some have British passports as well—Australia is taking the lead.
The noble Baroness and the noble Lord wanted me to confirm that we are working with all our allies on this. I can confirm that a great deal of work has gone on this week in the United Nations. During UNGA, the UK will shine a spotlight on Iran’s human rights record and will again bring up the detention of dual nationals. We will host an event with legal experts and international partners to highlight evidence of where Iran is failing to uphold its international obligations.
The noble Lord, Lord McNicol, mentioned President Macron’s initiative, which is important. A successor to a nuclear deal will take time to negotiate. In the meantime, we need Iran to comply and the French proposal is one way of encouraging the Iranians back to the table.
There are a couple of issues that I have not covered but I will ensure that I write to the noble Baroness and the noble Lord on those and place copies in the Library.
Export Licences: High Court Judgment
Debate between Earl of Courtown and Baroness Northover
Baroness Northover (LD)
My Lords, I too thank the Minister for repeating the Statement.
The judges concluded that it was “irrational and therefore unlawful” for the Government to have made the export licensing decisions without making adequate assessment of whether past incidents amounted to breaches of international humanitarian law and whether measures subsequently taken meant that there was no longer a “clear risk” that future exports might breach such law. They said:
“The question whether there was an historic pattern of breaches of IHL ... was a question which required to be faced”.
Does the Minister agree that this clearly and obviously must be the case? The pattern of serious violations did not simply need to be “taken into account”, as the Divisional Court found; the Court of Appeal ruled that the pattern has to be properly assessed and considered. In other words, the question of whether Saudi Arabia has breached international humanitarian law has to be answered. Does the Minister not regard this conclusion as an extraordinary indictment—that the Government had not properly made such assessments, despite all the pressure on them to do so, not least in Parliament?
Does he note that the US Senate will be voting on more than a dozen resolutions today aimed at blocking the Trump Administration’s sale of weapons to Saudi Arabia? What is the view of the UK Government on that? Indeed, they say that others may come to other conclusions, but some of the same evidence may be available to them as well as to us.
The Government imply in the Statement that they are making adequate assessments—in which case, as part of that wider consideration, have they looked at what happened, for example, to Jamal Khashoggi? Are they taking note of the UN report, for example, which states that the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia should be investigated over his murder because there is “credible evidence” that he and other senior officials may be liable for the killing? The UN special rapporteur says that the death of the journalist was “an international crime”. She says:
“It is the conclusion of the special rapporteur that Mr Khashoggi has been the victim of a deliberate, premeditated execution, an extrajudicial killing for which the state of Saudi Arabia is responsible under international human rights law”.
We are here looking at international human rights law and the extent to which Saudi Arabia adheres to it.
Have the Government also noted the imprisonment and execution of dissidents, including minors? Have they noted that Saudi-led forces have hit civilians, hospitals, schools and school buses in Yemen? We have asked questions about these attacks and have been assured that the Government did not think that international humanitarian law was broken. How could they say that if it was not properly assessed?
Like the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, I note the decision of Germany and Denmark not to sell arms to Saudi Arabia. Again, I point to the evidence that they will be looking at, which will be similar to the evidence that we can see.
The Government are signing up to agreements on human rights—work led by the Dutch in the EU. How does this square with that? Does he recall that the International Relations Committee concluded that the UK Government were, if only just, on the wrong side in this matter—I note that the noble Lord, Lord Howell, is in his place?
Astonishingly, one strand to which the Government pay attention is Saudi Arabia’s public statements about its commitment to adhere to international humanitarian law. Surely the time has come to examine the evidence properly and in a disinterested way. If this is done, does the Minister not believe that the time has come to ban the sale of arms to Saudi Arabia?
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, for their questions. First, I correct one point he made. We have said that no new licences will be issued while we examine the findings of the judicial review. He mentioned a number of issues in the overall framework of the situation and drew attention, as did she, to what is happening with our colleagues in Europe, particularly Germany and Denmark. They have both introduced specific policies over and above the EU common position. Our view is that the common position provides us with a sufficient basis for decision-making. The noble Lord also mentioned the Trade Bill, which went through the House last year—and this year as well. I cannot take account of factors such as the UK’s strategic economic and social interests in reaching licensing decisions. Decisions are made on the basis of the consolidated criteria, which I listed in the Statement.
The noble Lord and the noble Baroness both referred to non-military targets. Any loss of civilian life must be abhorred in the strongest terms. With our close relationship with the Saudi Arabian Government, we can make those comments to them. We have regular meetings at many levels of government where our views on these matters are forcefully made. The UK military personnel in Saudi Arabia are not involved in the conflict. UK engineers are present under contract to maintain aircraft for the Royal Saudi Air Force. Our assistance is limited to addressing the specific threats faced by the Saudis. We are providing information, advice and training to help Saudi Arabia to respond to those threats. We have also shared with the Saudis techniques to minimise civilian casualties. The UK has a range of personnel deployed across the region, but all remain under UK command and control. The noble Lord also asked a specific question about UK personnel there. I will write to him with further detail.
The noble Baroness drew attention to arms sales by the United States of America. We will of course keep a close watch on what eventually happens in the United States—as will my colleagues in the department. She also mentioned the dreadful incident of the death of Mr Khashoggi. It is an appalling state of affairs that Mr Khashoggi died, but it has no relationship to the criteria for export sales. She asked me a number of other questions to which I shall reply to her in writing, if that is sufficient.
United States-North Korea: Summit in Singapore
Debate between Earl of Courtown and Baroness Northover
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, my noble friend makes some very good points and we must never forget those atrocities—but it is so important to have regular dialogue with the DPRK. We continue to raise our concerns through our embassy in Pyongyang and in multilateral fora such as the UN General Assembly in New York and the Human Rights Council in Geneva—but my noble friend is quite right.
Baroness Northover (LD)
My Lords, bizarre as some of the images from Singapore might be, clearly, as other noble Lords have indicated, we have to welcome any moves to reduce tension on the Korean peninsula, though we should indeed be very cautious. What efforts might be made to encourage the United States Administration to look at Iran in a similar light—or is that far too much to hope for?
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, I think I answered something on Iran some time ago, but I fear my memory does not go back that far. Of course, Iran is of great importance and we discussed a number of matters during that exchange. I will draw it to the attention of my noble friend the Minister and write to the noble Baroness.
Government Policy towards Russia
Debate between Earl of Courtown and Baroness Northover
The Earl of Courtown
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Collins, for his questions. He is quite right that this investigation is urgent; it must be thorough, and speculation does not help at this moment. The noble Lord also made the point that some interaction is important and he is right on that too. We have to remain open to dialogue to reduce risk, talk about our differences and co-operate for the security of the international community. The noble Lord also raised the subject of the meeting in December. It is important that two P5 countries have these conversations. It is vital for international security that we continue to talk to each other and work together on important international security issues.
The noble Lord mentioned the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill. We also amended the Criminal Finances Bill during its passage, receiving cross-party support. It allows law enforcement agencies to use civil recovery powers to recover the proceeds of human rights abuses or violations, wherever they take place, if property is held in the UK. The Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill will provide the power for the UK to impose sanctions regimes after the UK has left the EU, including against a person involved in gross human rights abuses. Where a person has been designated under the Bill, they may also be defined as an exclusive person for the purposes of Section 8(b) of the Immigration Act 1971 and subject to a travel ban, preventing them being granted leave to enter or remain in the UK.
Baroness Northover (LD)
My Lords, I too thank the noble Earl for repeating the Answer to the Urgent Question. We share the concerns expressed regarding the two victims. I also pay tribute to the emergency services for their work in what may be an extremely dangerous situation. Although we do not know for sure what has happened, there are clearly concerns, so will the noble Earl tell us why last summer’s report that 14 people may have been murdered here by the Russians has not yet been investigated? Given the importance of London as a financial centre, does he agree that the Government can do much more to tackle money laundering and the evasion of sanctions by Russia? Will he clarify the comments of his right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary in relation to participation in the World Cup? What assistance will be given to the Intelligence and Security Committee, which wishes to instigate an inquiry into Russia’s covert activities?
The Earl of Courtown
I thank the noble Baroness for her questions. On her point about my right honourable friend’s comments on the World Cup, the hosting of sporting events is principally a matter for the relevant sporting authorities. A boycott by England is not in the Government’s gift. The noble Baroness also referred to money laundering. Of course, the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill is at the forefront of any future sanctions and actions concerning money laundering and is completing its passage through both Houses. I note what the noble Baroness said about the Intelligence and Security Committee. I will pass her comments to the department and see what action we are taking.