Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill

Debate between Earl Howe and Lord Lucas

Committee stage
Monday 22nd May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe (Con)]

I believe I have done so. The clause is justified for all the reasons I have mentioned.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, I am fascinated by the possibility of using this same mechanism on the chartered accountants, of whom I am a fellow and whom government often wishes would conduct themselves otherwise when looking after and examining the health of companies on behalf of shareholders; and on bodies such as psychiatrists’, which are currently adopting some very strange policies that seem to run counter to the national interest. But do we really want to rob these bodies of their independence, in a way that this clause starts us down the road to doing? Or do we want to encourage—and I have nothing, I am glad to say, to do with the role of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors—these bodies to heal themselves when they are sick, as appears to have happened in this case? There are a lot of bodies that have grown up over the years doing very important work within their segments of British public life. Are we really saying that this is the start of bringing them all under the Government, or are we happy to say that they may go wrong sometimes but what matters is that they sort themselves out and stay independent?

[Earl Howe (Con)]

My Lords, I would simply encourage my noble friend to read my remarks in Hansard. There is no promise in this clause to the effect that the current or a future Secretary of State will initiate a review, but that there should be a power for them to do so. I would encourage my noble friend to reflect on the justification I gave in the terms that I gave it, which is that we are clear that the independence of RICS in operating as it does is not in doubt.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Howe (Con)]

My Lords, I would be very happy to arrange a meeting with the noble Baroness and appropriate officials to discuss the point that she has just made.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for his answer to my amendment. I take much comfort in what he said about new build and planning permission and so on, and I can see how that all might work, but I do not see any sign of proposals that will work in persuading people to retrofit, and there is huge potential there. I very much hope that in due time the Government will turn their thoughts in that direction. I would just say to the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, that if she knows someone who can build a new town in three years, will she please introduce them to the restoration and renewal team.

Offensive Weapons Bill

Debate between Earl Howe and Lord Lucas

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 4th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

I am grateful to my noble friend. I am sure that that point will be taken on board by the clubs concerned and those who assist disabled shooters.

I do not think we can escape the fact that, were they to get hold of them, criminals or terrorists could cause more harm with this type of rifle than they ever could with a conventional one—acknowledging, of course, that all firearms are lethal and should be controlled. The Government are already satisfied, for the reasons that I have given, that these rapid-firing rifles meet the criteria that the amendment seeks to impose. For that reason, we think the additional wording is not required. I hope that on that basis my noble friend will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Lucas]

My Lords, yes, of course I am going to withdraw my amendment but before I do, I again urge the Government to look at the harm that they are focused on rather than the mechanism by which that harm is delivered. If, as I think is entirely reasonable, the Government do not want rapid-firing rifles, why does the Bill not say that? Just because the energy from firing the previous shot is conveniently available—that is the way that these rifles work at present—does not mean that you could not create a rifle that worked off previously stored compressed gas, batteries, a wind-up clockwork mechanism or some other means of storing energy that would allow a round to be automatically loaded, or loaded with an interrupt mechanism, after the previous round had been fired.

In this legislation we seem to be dealing with the mechanism rather than the underlying problem. Surely, if we deal with the underlying problem, we will not get the situation arising again where a couple of designs of rifle have been allowed to be created—they have not grown up without permission—and have been sold, when, fundamentally, as my noble friend Lord Attlee has pointed out, we feel uncomfortable about self-loading rifles. We are not banning self-loading rifles here; we are banning one particular mechanism of self-loading. That seems short-sighted and not the best way of tackling the problem.

I would be really grateful if my noble friend the Minister could share the evidence that these particular rifles are in fact faster-loading than a bolt-action rifle, not so much because I am concerned about this particular case but because I would like to know that when it comes to making this sort of judgment in future we can look at and understand the basis on which the decision has been taken.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, my understanding is that the evidence provided to the Government by the National Crime Agency is already in the public domain.

Offensive Weapons Bill

Debate between Earl Howe and Lord Lucas

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 6th February 2019 Grand Committee

[Earl Howe]

It was in an endeavour to address the general concern put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, that I undertook for the Government to consider seriously my noble friend Lord Attlee’s amendment and my noble friend Lord Lucas’s arguments. However, I take his point. I am sure that it will not be lost on Home Office Ministers or officials. Of course, we will give that further consideration.

[Lord Lucas]

My Lords, I am grateful for my noble friend’s calm and consideration, as ever. He would make an excellent target shooter. I will try to persuade him to join the Lords’ team for our battle against the Commons in July. I am grateful for what he said about Amendment 74, but when it comes to what my noble friend referred to as rapid-firing rifles, I would be grateful if he could share with us the evidence on which the Government have based the conclusion that the lever release rifle, in particular, is in practice a rapid-firing rifle.

I am not trying to pose as an expert in these things, but in terms of the evidence I have seen from people outside government, that matter is in question, and that is what lies behind my noble friend Lord Shrewsbury’s amendment. If my noble friend felt able to share the information or opinions on which that conclusion was based before Report, I would be immensely grateful.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, in so far as the security classification of the advice that the Government have received is not confidential, I would be happy to see what information we can release to my noble friend.

Register of Hereditary Peers

Debate between Earl Howe and Lord Lucas

Monday 9th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

The Government are certainly not averse to incremental reform, providing we can agree on what incremental reform means, which is the reason for my earlier answer to the noble Lord, Lord Grocott. As proof of that, one has only to look at the two Acts relating to the composition of the House that we passed in the last Parliament—the House of Lords (Expulsion and Suspension) Act 2015 and the House of Lords Reform Act 2014—as well as the Lords Spiritual (Women) Act 2015, which again was a measure in this bracket.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, these days, why should gender have any relevance for the descent of anything to anybody?

[Earl Howe]

My noble friend makes a point which I am sure would resonate with many of your Lordships. I am sure noble Lords would agree that once Peers reach this House, the equality principle is unquestioned.

Investigatory Powers Bill

Debate between Earl Howe and Lord Lucas

Tuesday 19th July 2016 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, Clause 58 is the first clause of Part 3 of the Bill and deals with the targeted obtaining of communications data. It provides the power for only those public authorities listed in Schedule 4 to the Bill to authorise conduct to obtain communications data. Obtaining communications data may be authorised only when necessary for one of the statutory purposes listed in Clause 58(7) and where the conduct authorised is proportionate to what is sought to be achieved. Similarly, Clause 146(2) provides the statutory purposes for which a bulk communications data acquisition warrant will be considered necessary. Those purposes mirror the statutory functions of the security and intelligence agencies, since bulk warrants are of course available only to those agencies. They are where it is,

“in the interests of national security”,

for the prevention or detection of serious crime, or,

“in the interests of the economic well-being of”,

the UK where relevant to national security.

Throughout the passage of the Bill, we have heard repeatedly of the vital importance of communications data for the full range of law enforcement activity and national security investigations. This Government are committed to ensuring that law enforcement and the intelligence agencies have the tools they need to carry out the critical responsibilities that Parliament has placed upon them. Indeed, one of the key aims of this legislation is to ensure that investigatory powers are fit for a digital age and that crime can be investigated wherever it takes place, regardless of the method of communication. However, the Government consider these amendments unnecessary for targeted communications data and an inappropriate extension of responsibilities for our intelligence agencies for bulk communications data.

The Bill already provides that communications data may be acquired for the purpose of preventing or detecting crime, wherever that crime takes place and whatever scale it is on, where an application for communications data meets the requirements for necessity and proportionality. So it would already be available for the purpose of suppressing less serious crimes perpetrated on a large scale. I commend the aim of my noble friend Lord Lucas’s amendment but I believe that the Bill already provides the powers that he seeks.

As I said earlier, the bulk acquisition of communications data is available only to the intelligence agencies, whose statutory functions relate to serious crime and national security. The inclusion of a statutory purpose to obtain communications data in bulk so that our intelligence agencies could suppress less serious crime would therefore, in my submission, be inappropriate.

I hope that my noble friend finds those comments helpful and will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Lucas]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his reply. I am not surprised but disappointed, but I shall certainly seek leave to withdraw my amendment.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Earl Howe and Lord Lucas

Wednesday 16th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, the standing rules will set the ongoing legal requirements for both the NHS Commissioning Board and the clinical commissioning groups. We intend to use the standing rules to replicate core elements of the current system, setting out the ongoing requirements, which will predominantly replace existing directions from the Secretary of State. As the standing rules will set out system-wide generic requirements, they will not apply to individual CCGs. While the rules will be kept under review, we do not expect to update them annually.

Clause 17 confers powers to make standing rules in a number of specified areas. The powers will be used to maintain the existing arrangements for NHS continuing healthcare—that is, care arranged and funded solely by the NHS for individuals outside hospital who have ongoing healthcare needs. They will also set out the mandatory terms to be included in commissioning contracts, set requirements around the provision of information and provide the legal basis for certain patient rights in the NHS constitution.

In addition to the particular areas specified in the clause, the Secretary of State will have a backstop power to make standing rules in other areas, under subsection (7)(c) of new Section 6E. He can require the board and clinical commissioning groups to do other things which he considers necessary for the purposes of the health service. The power simply provides a prudent degree of system flexibility to take account of changing circumstances in the NHS.

Noble Lords have tabled a number of amendments regarding the scrutiny that the regulations will receive, both through consultations and by Parliament. The noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, spoke with great force and persuasiveness on this theme. There are two elements to the scrutiny question—public consultation and parliamentary scrutiny. I can assure the Committee that in line with good practice across government, we fully intend to consult publicly on any new proposals for standing rules. The Health Select Committee would have the opportunity to examine proposals, and Ministers and the department would of course engage constructively with the Committee on any inquiry. However, I do not think that it is usual practice for legislation to set expectations on how the Government should work with Select Committees or on which areas the committees should focus.

Questions have also been raised about whether the board should be required to consult interested parties, such as representatives of CCGs and providers, before it drafts standard contract terms. We believe that regulations should be flexible on that point and minor changes will not always require consultation. Therefore, the regulations should be able to provide for this flexibility where necessary.

As to questions of parliamentary scrutiny, the standing rules will be subject to the negative resolution procedure, with the affirmative procedure used if the Government exercised the backstop power to make standing rules to require the board and clinical commissioning groups to do other things that the Secretary of State considers necessary for the purposes of the health service. The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee of your Lordships’ House was satisfied with these arrangements, as set out in its recent report on the Bill, which I was pleased to note.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, asked why the standing rules are not subject to the affirmative procedure. The rules will replicate current provisions in existing legislation, so we believe that the negative procedure provides for adequate scrutiny of these provisions. However, we agree that the affirmative procedure is important in other cases, which is why the broader power to allow the Secretary of State to make regulations which require the board or CCGs to do such other things as the Secretary of State considers necessary for the purposes of the health service—under subsection (7)(c) of new Section 6E, to be inserted into the NHS Act under Clause 17, which is a very generalised provision—will be subject to the affirmative procedure, which we think is the right balance.

Incidentally, the noble Lord remarked that, in his view, one cannot move in this Bill for delegated powers. I disagree with that. I think that this Bill represents a very significant transfer of power from the Executive to Parliament through placing far more detail in primary legislation as to the structures and workings of the health service than we have ever had before. For example, this Bill enshrines a process for the tariff, which is currently nowhere to be found in legislation.

The noble Lord asked about consultation on the standing rules themselves. The consultation to which the noble Lord referred is consultation by the board on standard contract terms with interested parties. Consultation on the standing rules themselves will be consultation by the Secretary of State. We intend to consult on these in line with good practice, as I have indicated.

Noble Lords also raised concerns about integration. We have discussed this topic at some length already, so I will be fairly brief. I can reassure noble Lords that the board and CCGs will be subject to the public sector equality duty set out in Section 149 of the Equality Act 2010—I am looking here particularly at the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, whose points I fully took. This is in addition to the duties set out by this Bill that require the board and CCGs to have regard to the need to reduce inequalities in outcomes and access to services when exercising their functions. I agree with the noble Baroness that awareness, training and understanding of the particular needs of people with disabilities are absolutely vital for all health bodies if they are to ensure that the improvement in outcomes that is needed in this area can be realised. We keep coming back to the outcomes framework. We should not forget it. It is not necessary to put it in the Bill but it does overarch the Bill, and we believe that the Bill creates the framework for the NHS to improve through the combination of clinically led commissioning and strengthened joint working.

Turning to the concerns raised by my noble friend Lord Lucas in his amendment, I draw the Committee’s attention to the provision that enables the standing rules to set out the mandatory terms to be included in the commissioning contracts. We expect that contracts will include, as now, provision to ensure that private providers are required to assist and co-operate with commissioners to enable them to comply with their disclosure obligations under the Freedom of Information Act. The underpinning of this is that, where a provider is not a public authority—that is, not an NHS trust or an NHS foundation trust—there is a provision in the current contracts for private providers to do exactly as I have indicated. I can tell my noble friend that we intend to use the standing rules to continue this provision, and I hope he will feel that that is entirely in keeping with, and goes with the grain of, his Amendment 92.

I also want to touch on the provisions that relate to EU obligations. These should be read alongside Clause 16, which allows the Secretary of State to delegate EU functions to the board and clinical commissioning groups. It sets out two types of direction-making power: one to direct about the exercise of delegated EU functions and the other to direct about any functions to ensure that we can respond quickly to potential breaches of EU law. Where there are ongoing, predictable requirements that derive from EU obligations but that do not relate to functions delegated under Clause 16, the power in the standing rules will be appropriate. We think that it is preferable to put such requirements in regulations rather than directions as this allows for parliamentary scrutiny and certainty for the NHS.

In the light of the details that I have set out, I hope that noble Lords who have spoken will feel able to withdraw their amendments.

[Lord Lucas]

Does my noble friend want my 15-minute speech now or will he promise me a meeting before Report stage? Given judgments that have already been made in parallel cases in other parts of freedom of information law, I do not believe that the solution he offers will work and achieve what he has promised. I shall be very happy to swap him a meeting before Report stage for a 15-minute speech now.

[Earl Howe]

I can undertake to meet my noble friend, whom I am always pleased to talk to. I hope that I am not unfairly denying the Committee the pleasure of listening to my noble friend, with what I am sure would have been some eloquent words.